4 ms·

Love the designs - but how is this better than a modern electric pedal assist or throttle controlled electric ebike? They made a lot of sense during the oil cr

by rwbt 4y ago

Love the designs - but how is this better than a modern electric pedal assist or throttle controlled electric ebike? They made a lot of sense during the oil crisis but why would anyone really bother getting licensed, paying for registration and maintaining insurance when you can get an electric bike and get a very similar experience without all that hassle? I'm not trying to be dismissive mind you, but genuinely curious if this potential market will be big enough to address it.

alwayslikethis 4y ago
In many countries, (incl. US), you can ride a moped with just a car license. The registration is greatly simplified compared to car and insurance wouldn't be that much.
- rahimnathwani 4y ago
  According to the California DMV, you can't ride a moped without a motorcycle licence: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-registration/motorcycles-mopeds-and-scooters/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-regis... "You must have a motorcycle license (M1 or M2) to drive a moped."
  - dharmab 4y ago
    California is unusually restrictive compared to the rest of the country.
  - JamesianP 4y ago
    I looked into it years ago and a moped license was way easier to get than a motorcycle license. Now it appears they both have the same requirements, just the M2 is more restricted in what it can be used for.
  - graton 4y ago
    In Oregon if it is less than 50cc and can not go faster than 30mph on a flat level surface than it only requires a normal car driver's license. No motorcycle endorsement is required. https://www.oregon.gov/odot/forms/dmv/6619.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/odot/forms/dmv/6619.pdf
- Markoff 4y ago
  I'd say in most of the EU you can ride <125ccm motorbike with regular car license, so this changes nothing at least in EU. Heck, I don't even know what is supposed to be "50ccm" ebike, ebikes are limited by laws in regard to their power wattage (250W) and speed (25kmh), not volume. Specifically EU directive says for pedal assisted ebike is this: "cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling" Everything else ain't ebike and requires some sort of license. Though of course the reality is police won't be checking every single ebike on road and they have no way to meaure the power.
  - camtarn 4y ago
    The 50cc and 125cc motorcycle classes are defined in the EU as both maximum volume and maximum power output in kW. So it's not too unusual to see '50cc-class' and '125cc-class' as descriptors for electric vehicles - a bit like how you could buy compact fluorescent or LED lights as '100W equivalent'.
LgWoodenBadger 4y ago
50cc mopeds don’t generally require a motorcycle endorsement in the US.
- eli 4y ago
  an ebike doesn't even require a driver license
  - phire 4y ago
    Electric Mopeds sit in a middle-ground, with more power, higher top speeds than ebikes but more restrictive licensing rules. For example, an ebike in Europe is speed limited to 25kph, and just small motors that can only output 250W.
  - JusticeJuice 4y ago
    ebikes have power limits or speed limits depending on the country.
    - eli 4y ago
      So do “50cc” mopeds.
zxexz 4y ago
I don’t have a response to your first question - some modern e-bikes are very capable. But in many jurisdictions registering a moped is extremely easy - in MA and VT at least, it’s honor system. In MA you have to go into the RMV but don’t have to have anything beyond the bill of sale and a VIN. VT you can even send in the form, you don’t even have to live in VT. You usually have to have a learners permit at the very least - sometimes a drivers license. I’m sure there are some places where you need a motorcycle endorsement, but I’m not aware of any in the US.
dharmab 4y ago
In my state a moped only requires a driver's license. No title, registration, insurance or M class endorsement required.
ehnto 4y ago
The difference is in the on-road experience. With this you are classified as a motor vehicle and can expect to keep up with and maneuver through road speed traffic. That's actually what pedal-assist restrictions are all about, clearly delineating the bicycles from the motorbikes. This also manages expectations for users. You shouldn't expect to play in traffic at 60+kmph as a cyclist, and you shouldn't expect to be riding your much heavier, much faster electric moped on bike paths. The form factors can make that line blurry, you could totally have a bicycle that can do 60+ and you could easily have a moped that looks small enough to be a bicycle. Hence the regulations to clear up any confusion. From a personal exprience point of view, I would expect to be able to comfortably wear leathers and a moto helmet and not negatively impact the ride. On a pedal assist bicycle there is no way I am wearing leathers and because of that I don't want to be going 60-80kmph in traffic unprotected, I want to be on seperated bike paths.
- pavon 4y ago
  When I bought my scooter the 50cc models I test drove could not reliably keep up with 30-35mph traffic. My 125cc does fine up to 45mph except on a steep incline.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- etrautmann 4y ago
  and yet here in NYC, we have people taking electric mopeds down the Hudson greenway and other protected pedestrian+bike paths.
  - CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
    I visited NYC this summer and observed a significant volume of gas mopeds on the protected bike paths. Gross!
  - ehnto 4y ago
    Oh I believe that, NYC is chaos. I bet people use those gas powered one-wheels wherever they want too
JusticeJuice 4y ago
Ebikes have restrictions on power, or speed in most places. Of course this is largely not enforced when people DIY, but a legit company can't just bring a mass produced 2000w ebike to market.
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
I guess that's all the same questions for mopeds everywhere?

by rwbt 4y ago

alwayslikethis 4y ago

In many countries, (incl. US), you can ride a moped with just a car license. The registration is greatly simplified compared to car and insurance wouldn't be that much.

rahimnathwani 4y ago
According to the California DMV, you can't ride a moped without a motorcycle licence: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-registration/motorcycles-mopeds-and-scooters/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-regis... "You must have a motorcycle license (M1 or M2) to drive a moped."
- dharmab 4y ago
  California is unusually restrictive compared to the rest of the country.
- JamesianP 4y ago
  I looked into it years ago and a moped license was way easier to get than a motorcycle license. Now it appears they both have the same requirements, just the M2 is more restricted in what it can be used for.
- graton 4y ago
  In Oregon if it is less than 50cc and can not go faster than 30mph on a flat level surface than it only requires a normal car driver's license. No motorcycle endorsement is required. https://www.oregon.gov/odot/forms/dmv/6619.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/odot/forms/dmv/6619.pdf
Markoff 4y ago
I'd say in most of the EU you can ride <125ccm motorbike with regular car license, so this changes nothing at least in EU. Heck, I don't even know what is supposed to be "50ccm" ebike, ebikes are limited by laws in regard to their power wattage (250W) and speed (25kmh), not volume. Specifically EU directive says for pedal assisted ebike is this: "cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling" Everything else ain't ebike and requires some sort of license. Though of course the reality is police won't be checking every single ebike on road and they have no way to meaure the power.
- camtarn 4y ago
  The 50cc and 125cc motorcycle classes are defined in the EU as both maximum volume and maximum power output in kW. So it's not too unusual to see '50cc-class' and '125cc-class' as descriptors for electric vehicles - a bit like how you could buy compact fluorescent or LED lights as '100W equivalent'.

LgWoodenBadger 4y ago

50cc mopeds don’t generally require a motorcycle endorsement in the US.

eli 4y ago
an ebike doesn't even require a driver license
- phire 4y ago
  Electric Mopeds sit in a middle-ground, with more power, higher top speeds than ebikes but more restrictive licensing rules. For example, an ebike in Europe is speed limited to 25kph, and just small motors that can only output 250W.
- JusticeJuice 4y ago
  ebikes have power limits or speed limits depending on the country.
  - eli 4y ago
    So do “50cc” mopeds.

zxexz 4y ago

I don’t have a response to your first question - some modern e-bikes are very capable. But in many jurisdictions registering a moped is extremely easy - in MA and VT at least, it’s honor system. In MA you have to go into the RMV but don’t have to have anything beyond the bill of sale and a VIN. VT you can even send in the form, you don’t even have to live in VT. You usually have to have a learners permit at the very least - sometimes a drivers license. I’m sure there are some places where you need a motorcycle endorsement, but I’m not aware of any in the US.

dharmab 4y ago

In my state a moped only requires a driver's license. No title, registration, insurance or M class endorsement required.

ehnto 4y ago

The difference is in the on-road experience. With this you are classified as a motor vehicle and can expect to keep up with and maneuver through road speed traffic. That's actually what pedal-assist restrictions are all about, clearly delineating the bicycles from the motorbikes. This also manages expectations for users. You shouldn't expect to play in traffic at 60+kmph as a cyclist, and you shouldn't expect to be riding your much heavier, much faster electric moped on bike paths. The form factors can make that line blurry, you could totally have a bicycle that can do 60+ and you could easily have a moped that looks small enough to be a bicycle. Hence the regulations to clear up any confusion. From a personal exprience point of view, I would expect to be able to comfortably wear leathers and a moto helmet and not negatively impact the ride. On a pedal assist bicycle there is no way I am wearing leathers and because of that I don't want to be going 60-80kmph in traffic unprotected, I want to be on seperated bike paths.

pavon 4y ago
When I bought my scooter the 50cc models I test drove could not reliably keep up with 30-35mph traffic. My 125cc does fine up to 45mph except on a steep incline.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
etrautmann 4y ago
and yet here in NYC, we have people taking electric mopeds down the Hudson greenway and other protected pedestrian+bike paths.
- CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
  I visited NYC this summer and observed a significant volume of gas mopeds on the protected bike paths. Gross!
- ehnto 4y ago
  Oh I believe that, NYC is chaos. I bet people use those gas powered one-wheels wherever they want too

JusticeJuice 4y ago

Ebikes have restrictions on power, or speed in most places. Of course this is largely not enforced when people DIY, but a legit company can't just bring a mass produced 2000w ebike to market.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

I guess that's all the same questions for mopeds everywhere?