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Someone more versed in social media could perhaps explain this to me... Are you able to "sign up once" and be able to log into every instance of Mastodon? Wou

by robswc 4y ago

Someone more versed in social media could perhaps explain this to me... Are you able to "sign up once" and be able to log into every instance of Mastodon? Would having a "central profile" database break everything it stands for? I really like the idea. At the end of the day though, people usually follow the path of least resistance. Hence why reddit "wins" over forums (obv forums are much better for many things but you know). It seems like something I would be interested in. I have been, since before this twitter drama even started. Someone tried explaining it back then and it sorta made sense. Perhaps its changed in the mean time though?

LeoPanthera 4y ago
If you just want to read posts on Mastodon, you don't need to sign up at all. You only need to sign up (just once) if you want to follow people, or post yourself. You can read all (public) posts on all instances either way.
- robswc 4y ago
  Interesting. So I swear this is not on purpose, but I went to try to see what thing I would be interested in. I searched "Mastodon Technology" and it leads me here: https://mastodon.technology/about https://mastodon.technology/about It says it's shutting down though? So they can just shut down and if you don't migrate your account in time, you're SoL ? I do understand a bit more now. I remember being interested in it around 2019 and it was a bit confusing then. Your comment clears it up quite a bit.
  - rolenthedeep 4y ago
    Yes, but if Twitter shut down, you wouldn't have any more options. That server got too big for its admin team to handle. The general sentiment around mastodon is that it's sad, but it isn't a bad thing. The admins did their best, but it's in everyone's best interest to shut it down gracefully rather than let it fester. All the users will migrate to new communities and continue on. Mastodon has a problem with scaling individual instances. It works best when there are a lot of relatively small instances. Once you get too many users, server resources get tight FAST. My instance has gone down three times for upgrades this week, and the admin has had to suspend new user registration because the server just can't keep up.
    - robswc 4y ago
      >Yes, but if Twitter shut down, you wouldn't have any more options That's totally fair. You're also SoL if you don't agree with their policies, etc. So I'm definitely not a fan of the way that works. >Mastodon has a problem with scaling individual instances That's unfortunate to hear. Seems like a "core" issue though... I mean, if it approaches anywhere near the number of DAU twitter has... no idea how that would work, logistically. Seems it would have to come full-circle where hosters have incentive beyond "hobby" and "clout" reasons.
      - rolenthedeep 4y ago
        There are a lot of things to complain about in the core of mastodon as a piece of software. That's a big part of why there are so many alternatives built on the same protocol. The idea is that by spreading the users amongst many smaller servers, everyone has a pretty responsive experience while still being able to (hypothetically) interact with as many users as on Twitter.
    - appletrotter 4y ago
      > The general sentiment is… it isn't a bad thing The general tone has seemed very defensive
      - rolenthedeep 4y ago
        The discussion I've seen frames it something like this: Servers rise and fall, it's part of the life cycle here. The admins couldn't handle the size of the server, and it was causing a rapidly degrading experience for everyone. Shutting down the server was mostly in the best personal interests of the admin, but people seem to be respecting them for that. They did the responsible thing by shutting down new registration, making very loud announcements, and giving everyone as much time as possible to migrate their accounts. In other words, any instance will shut down sooner or later, and the way the admin handled this particular case is the most respectful way to treat the users. Sad that it happened, but much respect for handling it as gracefully as possible.
BeetleB 4y ago
> Are you able to "sign up once" and be able to log into every instance of Mastodon? No. You can follow people in other instances and interact with them, but your account is tied to your instance.
- robswc 4y ago
  So if user A signs up on instance A, they can follow instance B and interact with users on instance B? Effectively, if you follow enough instances, it would look/feel like twitter? In the sense that you get a feed of interesting content from multiple users?
  - BeetleB 4y ago
    Yep. The one major difference is you cannot "subscribe" to a hashtag. You can do a hashtag view, but it will be limited to all the toots on your server (which I believe includes all the toots people in other servers that folks on your server have subscribed to).
    - robswc 4y ago
      Makes sense. I never really subscribed to hashtags in the first place. Always seem to be filled with spam. On twitter, I just follow a few interesting people and they'll usually tweet or retweet interesting stuff, so it works out.
      - BeetleB 4y ago
        > I never really subscribed to hashtags in the first place. They're useful for limited, local current events. As an example, there was a sudden bush fire near my relative's house, and it was convenient to be able to track all the tweets tied to that hashtag to get the latest updates. For events like this, the local news media has only a tiny fraction of the (mis)information. You get a lot more (mis)information by following the hashtag.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      Will that not become extremely resource-intensive once a server grows a bit and federates with other larger servers? E.g. you have 5000 users and they follow some other 50k users (each one following 10 people feels low, but I have no idea), you're now locally saving the twoots of 50000 users. And this is the same for every server, or is there kind of a synergy between federated servers?
rolenthedeep 4y ago
>Are you able to "sign up once" and be able to log into every instance of Mastodon? In short, no. But this isn't a question that makes sense in context, it's like asking if you can sign into Yahoo with your Gmail account. Let's be clear up front: mastodon is not Twitter. They look similar at first glance, but that's as far as it goes. Try to keep an open mind and appreciate mastodon for what it is instead of what it isn't. Each instance is an independent server. The software is often tweaked, custom interfaces, and each instance builds a unique community with their own rules. The trick is that they all speak the ActivityPub protocol, which allows any server to talk to any other. You don't need to log into other instances because your instance already knows how to show you content from another. You can interact with any account on any instance which talks to yours. Those remote accounts don't even have to be mastodon accounts! You can follow accounts on pixelfed, peertube, pleroma, etc all from your one mastodon account. It's often compared to email. Anyone anywhere can spin up a server and start sending email to Gmail, yahoo, outlook, etc. No two email servers have any relation to one another, but since everyone uses the same protocol, you can generally talk to anyone. Additionally, you can move your account between servers. It will transfer your profile and followers, but not posts. There's a general sentiment that posts should be ephemeral, and you have settings in your account to delete posts after a period of time. Mastodon is fundamentally different from how we've been doing social media, and I think that's a good thing. I've been using it for a couple of years, and I haven't had fun on social media like this since I became friends with Tom on MySpace. It's new and scary, but if anyone is considering trying it out, I enthusiastically encourage you to give it a good solid try for a week or two. The big servers are fine, but you really want to fine a small server with a community of interests similar to yours. (avoid mastodon.social like the plague) Through the last few waves of people jumping ship, almost everyone remarks that it's a better experience. You get more and more meaningful engagement on your posts, even with 1/100th the follower count. It's a much more fun and human experience than machine-fed algorithmic crap.
- oezi 4y ago
  Great explanation! > It's a much more fun and human experience than machine-fed algorithmic crap. What happens when the bots show up?
INTPenis 4y ago
This HN post is actually a perfect opportunity to demonstrate an important detail of the fediverse. See the post links to mastodon.xyz, one instance. I replaced mastodon.xyz with my own instance and only got two posts. So each instance has a fairly unique perspective based on its federation. And that federation is decided through mainly two factors, what its users follow, and AP relays. AP relays are just a cheatcode that gives a small instance a lot of federation by subscribing to relayed "toots" from other instances. But the true federation magic happens when users follow other users. So clearly there is very little (almost none) overlap between my instance and mastodon.xyz because the only mention of this tag was rom 2017, and one linking the HN post now.

by robswc 4y ago

LeoPanthera 4y ago

If you just want to read posts on Mastodon, you don't need to sign up at all. You only need to sign up (just once) if you want to follow people, or post yourself. You can read all (public) posts on all instances either way.

robswc 4y ago
Interesting. So I swear this is not on purpose, but I went to try to see what thing I would be interested in. I searched "Mastodon Technology" and it leads me here: https://mastodon.technology/about https://mastodon.technology/about It says it's shutting down though? So they can just shut down and if you don't migrate your account in time, you're SoL ? I do understand a bit more now. I remember being interested in it around 2019 and it was a bit confusing then. Your comment clears it up quite a bit.
- rolenthedeep 4y ago
  Yes, but if Twitter shut down, you wouldn't have any more options. That server got too big for its admin team to handle. The general sentiment around mastodon is that it's sad, but it isn't a bad thing. The admins did their best, but it's in everyone's best interest to shut it down gracefully rather than let it fester. All the users will migrate to new communities and continue on. Mastodon has a problem with scaling individual instances. It works best when there are a lot of relatively small instances. Once you get too many users, server resources get tight FAST. My instance has gone down three times for upgrades this week, and the admin has had to suspend new user registration because the server just can't keep up.
  - robswc 4y ago
    >Yes, but if Twitter shut down, you wouldn't have any more options That's totally fair. You're also SoL if you don't agree with their policies, etc. So I'm definitely not a fan of the way that works. >Mastodon has a problem with scaling individual instances That's unfortunate to hear. Seems like a "core" issue though... I mean, if it approaches anywhere near the number of DAU twitter has... no idea how that would work, logistically. Seems it would have to come full-circle where hosters have incentive beyond "hobby" and "clout" reasons.
    - rolenthedeep 4y ago
      There are a lot of things to complain about in the core of mastodon as a piece of software. That's a big part of why there are so many alternatives built on the same protocol. The idea is that by spreading the users amongst many smaller servers, everyone has a pretty responsive experience while still being able to (hypothetically) interact with as many users as on Twitter.
  - appletrotter 4y ago
    > The general sentiment is… it isn't a bad thing The general tone has seemed very defensive
    - rolenthedeep 4y ago
      The discussion I've seen frames it something like this: Servers rise and fall, it's part of the life cycle here. The admins couldn't handle the size of the server, and it was causing a rapidly degrading experience for everyone. Shutting down the server was mostly in the best personal interests of the admin, but people seem to be respecting them for that. They did the responsible thing by shutting down new registration, making very loud announcements, and giving everyone as much time as possible to migrate their accounts. In other words, any instance will shut down sooner or later, and the way the admin handled this particular case is the most respectful way to treat the users. Sad that it happened, but much respect for handling it as gracefully as possible.

BeetleB 4y ago

> Are you able to "sign up once" and be able to log into every instance of Mastodon? No. You can follow people in other instances and interact with them, but your account is tied to your instance.

robswc 4y ago
So if user A signs up on instance A, they can follow instance B and interact with users on instance B? Effectively, if you follow enough instances, it would look/feel like twitter? In the sense that you get a feed of interesting content from multiple users?
- BeetleB 4y ago
  Yep. The one major difference is you cannot "subscribe" to a hashtag. You can do a hashtag view, but it will be limited to all the toots on your server (which I believe includes all the toots people in other servers that folks on your server have subscribed to).
  - robswc 4y ago
    Makes sense. I never really subscribed to hashtags in the first place. Always seem to be filled with spam. On twitter, I just follow a few interesting people and they'll usually tweet or retweet interesting stuff, so it works out.
    - BeetleB 4y ago
      > I never really subscribed to hashtags in the first place. They're useful for limited, local current events. As an example, there was a sudden bush fire near my relative's house, and it was convenient to be able to track all the tweets tied to that hashtag to get the latest updates. For events like this, the local news media has only a tiny fraction of the (mis)information. You get a lot more (mis)information by following the hashtag.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Will that not become extremely resource-intensive once a server grows a bit and federates with other larger servers? E.g. you have 5000 users and they follow some other 50k users (each one following 10 people feels low, but I have no idea), you're now locally saving the twoots of 50000 users. And this is the same for every server, or is there kind of a synergy between federated servers?

rolenthedeep 4y ago

>Are you able to "sign up once" and be able to log into every instance of Mastodon? In short, no. But this isn't a question that makes sense in context, it's like asking if you can sign into Yahoo with your Gmail account. Let's be clear up front: mastodon is not Twitter. They look similar at first glance, but that's as far as it goes. Try to keep an open mind and appreciate mastodon for what it is instead of what it isn't. Each instance is an independent server. The software is often tweaked, custom interfaces, and each instance builds a unique community with their own rules. The trick is that they all speak the ActivityPub protocol, which allows any server to talk to any other. You don't need to log into other instances because your instance already knows how to show you content from another. You can interact with any account on any instance which talks to yours. Those remote accounts don't even have to be mastodon accounts! You can follow accounts on pixelfed, peertube, pleroma, etc all from your one mastodon account. It's often compared to email. Anyone anywhere can spin up a server and start sending email to Gmail, yahoo, outlook, etc. No two email servers have any relation to one another, but since everyone uses the same protocol, you can generally talk to anyone. Additionally, you can move your account between servers. It will transfer your profile and followers, but not posts. There's a general sentiment that posts should be ephemeral, and you have settings in your account to delete posts after a period of time. Mastodon is fundamentally different from how we've been doing social media, and I think that's a good thing. I've been using it for a couple of years, and I haven't had fun on social media like this since I became friends with Tom on MySpace. It's new and scary, but if anyone is considering trying it out, I enthusiastically encourage you to give it a good solid try for a week or two. The big servers are fine, but you really want to fine a small server with a community of interests similar to yours. (avoid mastodon.social like the plague) Through the last few waves of people jumping ship, almost everyone remarks that it's a better experience. You get more and more meaningful engagement on your posts, even with 1/100th the follower count. It's a much more fun and human experience than machine-fed algorithmic crap.

oezi 4y ago
Great explanation! > It's a much more fun and human experience than machine-fed algorithmic crap. What happens when the bots show up?

INTPenis 4y ago

This HN post is actually a perfect opportunity to demonstrate an important detail of the fediverse. See the post links to mastodon.xyz, one instance. I replaced mastodon.xyz with my own instance and only got two posts. So each instance has a fairly unique perspective based on its federation. And that federation is decided through mainly two factors, what its users follow, and AP relays. AP relays are just a cheatcode that gives a small instance a lot of federation by subscribing to relayed "toots" from other instances. But the true federation magic happens when users follow other users. So clearly there is very little (almost none) overlap between my instance and mastodon.xyz because the only mention of this tag was rom 2017, and one linking the HN post now.