3 ms·

Essentially these plants are forced to be unprofitable via energy laws. For example, the nuclear plants are forced to sell their energy to energy traders at un

by evilos 4y ago

Essentially these plants are forced to be unprofitable via energy laws. For example, the nuclear plants are forced to sell their energy to energy traders at unprofitable low rates but those traders are never required to buy the energy and if the price of energy drops below this rate (AFTER it was bought) then the traders can just "return" the energy and the operators have to eat it. This happened during covid when energy prices collapsed due to lack of demand. These middlemen profit off of cheap nuclear energy instead of rate payers. In addition, the nuclear plants must pay a 23 euro per MWh tax that subsidizes the operation of renewable energy. Since the plants are forced to sell their energy below cost and subsidize renewable generation, they are not profitable and aren't given the proper funds to maintain/improve these plants. So then these plants look bad/expensive and the ministers in charge demand that these plants are closed down before the end of their life. Even though the upfront costs have already been paid and the electricity they make are far cheaper than renewable generation if you don't force these crazy disadvantages on them. Mark Nelson talks about theses problems in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isgu-VrD0oM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isgu-VrD0oM

Schroedingersat 4y ago
> For example, the nuclear plants are forced to sell their energy to energy traders at unprofitable low rates but those traders are never required to buy the energy and if the price of energy drops below this rate (AFTER it was bought) then the traders can just "return" the energy and the operators have to eat it. This happened during covid when energy prices collapsed due to lack of demand. These middlemen profit off of cheap nuclear energy instead of rate payers. Is this just nuclear or does it apply to other generation? > In addition, the nuclear plants must pay a 23 euro per MWh tax that subsidizes the operation of renewable energy. Source? One that isn't an hour long video and actually has a primary source.
- evilos 4y ago
  It is specific to the nuclear fleet: https://www.magnuscmd.com/the-arenh-regulated-access-to-frances-historic-nuclear-energy/ https://www.magnuscmd.com/the-arenh-regulated-access-to-fran... So nuclear plants are forced to sell energy below cost and they must buy a certain amount of renewable energy at inflated rates. This has forced them into debt. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-budget-carbon/france-raises-carbon-taxes-to-repay-edf-renewables-debt-idUSKCN1C21DL https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-budget-carbon/fran... I was technically mistaken about the 23 eu/MWh tax. The amount seems to be correct but it is charged to the ratepayer (not EDF) and is meant to help EDF cover the cost of the renewable energy they are forced to buy. But it does not actually cover the amount of renewable energy they are forced to buy, hence the debt. CSPE tax: https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/electric-power/111913-french-household-power-tax-should-rise-by-67-to-cover-renewables-regulator https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight... https://www.economie.gouv.fr/entreprises/contribution-service-public-electricite-cspe https://www.economie.gouv.fr/entreprises/contribution-servic...
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    So they were complaining about being held to an agreement to priority (essentially a price cap) for 25% of power they made in exchange for being handed a monopoly on power generation with infrastructure paid for by the public? And the feed in tarriff acumulated a quarter of a nuclear reactor's worth of extra liability which they are now being paid? You seem to be really reaching to claim this is somehow unfair. Especially considering the other side of the deal where taxpayers or utility customers who are victims of new nuclear plants are just told 'fuck you, you're paying the price we made up even if we don't generate any power' or 'we made one in another country and failed really bad so you get to pay half' or 'whoops, we only put aside 1/4th of the money needed to decomission...have fun paying another billionperGWbyeeee' or 'we racked up a quarter trillion dollar cleanup bill but we made you sign a treaty saying we only have to pay 0.5%, have fun'.
    - evilos 4y ago
      EDF is 85% owned by the French government. They were forced to "privatize" by the EU but are now planning to be nationalized again. Nuclear infrastructure that is already paid for is being neglected and paracitized to pay for new solar/wind generation. The government has mandated that they will shut down perfectly good plants, taking nuclear from 75% of generation to 50%. The grid was already largely decarbonized! They are throwing away reliable cheap energy in order to pay for new intermittent energy. The result is increased cost, decreased reliability, and more emissions when the renewables aren't available. Fossil fuel use has stayed the same or even increased since renewables started being added: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_France#/media/File:France_Electricity_production_1981-2017_(EIA).png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_France#/media/File:F... > Especially considering the other side of the deal where taxpayers or utility customers who are victims of new nuclear plants are just told 'fuck you, you're paying the price we made up even if we don't generate any power' or 'we made one in another country and failed really bad so you get to pay half' or 'whoops, we only put aside 1/4th of the money needed to decomission...have fun paying another billionperGWbyeeee' or 'we racked up a quarter trillion dollar cleanup bill but we made you sign a treaty saying we only have to pay 0.5%, have fun'. Hmm, maybe they'd have more money to fund things properly if they were allowed to charge the true rate for electricity (instead of letting other companies arbitrage for free), and weren't forced to buy renewable electricity at high prices?

by evilos 4y ago

Schroedingersat 4y ago

> For example, the nuclear plants are forced to sell their energy to energy traders at unprofitable low rates but those traders are never required to buy the energy and if the price of energy drops below this rate (AFTER it was bought) then the traders can just "return" the energy and the operators have to eat it. This happened during covid when energy prices collapsed due to lack of demand. These middlemen profit off of cheap nuclear energy instead of rate payers. Is this just nuclear or does it apply to other generation? > In addition, the nuclear plants must pay a 23 euro per MWh tax that subsidizes the operation of renewable energy. Source? One that isn't an hour long video and actually has a primary source.

evilos 4y ago
It is specific to the nuclear fleet: https://www.magnuscmd.com/the-arenh-regulated-access-to-frances-historic-nuclear-energy/ https://www.magnuscmd.com/the-arenh-regulated-access-to-fran... So nuclear plants are forced to sell energy below cost and they must buy a certain amount of renewable energy at inflated rates. This has forced them into debt. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-budget-carbon/france-raises-carbon-taxes-to-repay-edf-renewables-debt-idUSKCN1C21DL https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-budget-carbon/fran... I was technically mistaken about the 23 eu/MWh tax. The amount seems to be correct but it is charged to the ratepayer (not EDF) and is meant to help EDF cover the cost of the renewable energy they are forced to buy. But it does not actually cover the amount of renewable energy they are forced to buy, hence the debt. CSPE tax: https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/electric-power/111913-french-household-power-tax-should-rise-by-67-to-cover-renewables-regulator https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight... https://www.economie.gouv.fr/entreprises/contribution-service-public-electricite-cspe https://www.economie.gouv.fr/entreprises/contribution-servic...
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  So they were complaining about being held to an agreement to priority (essentially a price cap) for 25% of power they made in exchange for being handed a monopoly on power generation with infrastructure paid for by the public? And the feed in tarriff acumulated a quarter of a nuclear reactor's worth of extra liability which they are now being paid? You seem to be really reaching to claim this is somehow unfair. Especially considering the other side of the deal where taxpayers or utility customers who are victims of new nuclear plants are just told 'fuck you, you're paying the price we made up even if we don't generate any power' or 'we made one in another country and failed really bad so you get to pay half' or 'whoops, we only put aside 1/4th of the money needed to decomission...have fun paying another billionperGWbyeeee' or 'we racked up a quarter trillion dollar cleanup bill but we made you sign a treaty saying we only have to pay 0.5%, have fun'.
  - evilos 4y ago
    EDF is 85% owned by the French government. They were forced to "privatize" by the EU but are now planning to be nationalized again. Nuclear infrastructure that is already paid for is being neglected and paracitized to pay for new solar/wind generation. The government has mandated that they will shut down perfectly good plants, taking nuclear from 75% of generation to 50%. The grid was already largely decarbonized! They are throwing away reliable cheap energy in order to pay for new intermittent energy. The result is increased cost, decreased reliability, and more emissions when the renewables aren't available. Fossil fuel use has stayed the same or even increased since renewables started being added: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_France#/media/File:France_Electricity_production_1981-2017_(EIA).png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_France#/media/File:F... > Especially considering the other side of the deal where taxpayers or utility customers who are victims of new nuclear plants are just told 'fuck you, you're paying the price we made up even if we don't generate any power' or 'we made one in another country and failed really bad so you get to pay half' or 'whoops, we only put aside 1/4th of the money needed to decomission...have fun paying another billionperGWbyeeee' or 'we racked up a quarter trillion dollar cleanup bill but we made you sign a treaty saying we only have to pay 0.5%, have fun'. Hmm, maybe they'd have more money to fund things properly if they were allowed to charge the true rate for electricity (instead of letting other companies arbitrage for free), and weren't forced to buy renewable electricity at high prices?