4 ms·

Why should they pay more if they already get 100x more submissions than they need? It’s clear that almost all constructors do it for fun so paying more isn’t go

Why should they pay more if they already get 100x more submissions than they need? It’s clear that almost all constructors do it for fun so paying more isn’t going to improve quality. For solvers the real value add comes from the editor and selection process that ensures reasonable quality and consistency. I’m also curious when we switch to AI generated crosswords. It seems like it shouldn’t be too long from now that they match human constructors.

whateveracct 4y ago
Our of curiosity, do you regularly do crosswords? Like the NYT or otherwise?
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  Yes, I do at least one daily, mainly NYT and AVCX.
Khannor 4y ago
Note that the NYTXW is not the only crossword publisher out there. I construct crosswords from time to time, and I always send my best puzzles to the NYT first, simply because they're the most prestigious and pay the most. (And you can't send a crossword to two publishers at once.) On your other note -- it's really not difficult to make a bad, or even mediocre, autogenerated crossword using pretty simple software. There's several free or inexpensive programs out there (I use CrossFire). The main obstacles for AI-generated crosswords are: (a) the "theme", the 3-5 longer answers that the Mon-Thu and Sun puzzles are usually centered around, most of which involve wordplay and misdirection -- it's possible, I'd like to see an AI reliably come up with those. (b) the clues, though I don't think these are intractable either.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rjh29 4y ago
  Even for Fri/Sat there is creativity in the fill and the layout of the crossword, and usually at least some creativity in the clues (referencing each other etc.) so I think we're a few years out from having AI consistently make good puzzles.
bobro 4y ago
Why would you think AI would be able to make enjoyable puzzles? Are there any examples where AI does a good job at the word play and culture references that make crosswords so enjoyable?
- thom 4y ago
  I have been back and forth, but I suspect this will turn out to be one of those things people think is innately human but then quickly move on from when models do it well in the next 5 years. Culture references are just patterns in giant text corpuses, as far as crosswords are concerned.
  - joseda-hg 4y ago
    https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.02311.pdf#page38 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.02311.pdf#page38 I believe we're already at the footsteps of AI understanding cultural references "Input: Michael is at that really famous museum in France looking at its most famous painting. However, the artist who made this painting just makes Michael think of his favorite cartoon character from his childhood. What was the country of origin of the thing that the cartoon character usually holds in his hand? Model Output: The most famous painting in the Louvre is the Mona Lisa. The artist who made the Mona Lisa is Leonardo da Vinci. Leonardo da Vinci is also the name of the main character in the cartoon Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Leonardo da Vinci is from Italy. The thing that Leonardo da Vinci usually holds in his hand is a katana. The country of origin of the katana is Japan. The answer is "Japan""
    - stevage 4y ago
      Where are the bo, Sai and nunchuck form? Weird have guess sed Japan too.
    - morjom 4y ago
      The ninja turtle is not a Da Vinci though.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  It doesn't seem like a much more difficult task then generating poems, writing or art which ai has been making huge strides in recently.
rjh29 4y ago
Most constructors aren't consistently good (i.e. publishing more than one puzzle a year) and so the crowdsourcing model makes sense. And the editors do rewrite many of the questions and provide feedback which is important. Crosswords can already be generated by AI, but writing the clues in a clever way is non-trivial, making the fill exciting is not a solved problem, and most importantly a shallow AI cannot conceive or generate a theme. AI crosswords will become a thing around the same time AI-created novels do.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  I suspect crosswords will be easier to generate than novels, because novels have much more of a 'voice' than crosswords do. Of course if you mean filler genre novels then I suppose that's a bit easier than more complex work. But perhaps I am wrong.

whateveracct 4y ago

Our of curiosity, do you regularly do crosswords? Like the NYT or otherwise?

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
Yes, I do at least one daily, mainly NYT and AVCX.

Khannor 4y ago

Note that the NYTXW is not the only crossword publisher out there. I construct crosswords from time to time, and I always send my best puzzles to the NYT first, simply because they're the most prestigious and pay the most. (And you can't send a crossword to two publishers at once.) On your other note -- it's really not difficult to make a bad, or even mediocre, autogenerated crossword using pretty simple software. There's several free or inexpensive programs out there (I use CrossFire). The main obstacles for AI-generated crosswords are: (a) the "theme", the 3-5 longer answers that the Mon-Thu and Sun puzzles are usually centered around, most of which involve wordplay and misdirection -- it's possible, I'd like to see an AI reliably come up with those. (b) the clues, though I don't think these are intractable either.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rjh29 4y ago
Even for Fri/Sat there is creativity in the fill and the layout of the crossword, and usually at least some creativity in the clues (referencing each other etc.) so I think we're a few years out from having AI consistently make good puzzles.

bobro 4y ago

Why would you think AI would be able to make enjoyable puzzles? Are there any examples where AI does a good job at the word play and culture references that make crosswords so enjoyable?

thom 4y ago
I have been back and forth, but I suspect this will turn out to be one of those things people think is innately human but then quickly move on from when models do it well in the next 5 years. Culture references are just patterns in giant text corpuses, as far as crosswords are concerned.
- joseda-hg 4y ago
  https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.02311.pdf#page38 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.02311.pdf#page38 I believe we're already at the footsteps of AI understanding cultural references "Input: Michael is at that really famous museum in France looking at its most famous painting. However, the artist who made this painting just makes Michael think of his favorite cartoon character from his childhood. What was the country of origin of the thing that the cartoon character usually holds in his hand? Model Output: The most famous painting in the Louvre is the Mona Lisa. The artist who made the Mona Lisa is Leonardo da Vinci. Leonardo da Vinci is also the name of the main character in the cartoon Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Leonardo da Vinci is from Italy. The thing that Leonardo da Vinci usually holds in his hand is a katana. The country of origin of the katana is Japan. The answer is "Japan""
  - stevage 4y ago
    Where are the bo, Sai and nunchuck form? Weird have guess sed Japan too.
  - morjom 4y ago
    The ninja turtle is not a Da Vinci though.
JamesBarney 4y ago
It doesn't seem like a much more difficult task then generating poems, writing or art which ai has been making huge strides in recently.

rjh29 4y ago

Most constructors aren't consistently good (i.e. publishing more than one puzzle a year) and so the crowdsourcing model makes sense. And the editors do rewrite many of the questions and provide feedback which is important. Crosswords can already be generated by AI, but writing the clues in a clever way is non-trivial, making the fill exciting is not a solved problem, and most importantly a shallow AI cannot conceive or generate a theme. AI crosswords will become a thing around the same time AI-created novels do.

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
I suspect crosswords will be easier to generate than novels, because novels have much more of a 'voice' than crosswords do. Of course if you mean filler genre novels then I suppose that's a bit easier than more complex work. But perhaps I am wrong.