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That's a ludicrous statement. Putin clearly stated he has no such intentions and even if he had the poor performance of his armed forces will make him think tw

That's a ludicrous statement. Putin clearly stated he has no such intentions and even if he had the poor performance of his armed forces will make him think twice before attacking NATO countries. After the Cold War the U.S. searched the Soviet archives for evidence of plans to attack NATO, but all these turned up nothing. The Soviet Union never had the intention to attack Western Europe and all their posturing was merely to make us believe they were stronger than they actually were. Yes, they'd won the Second World War, but only at enormous human cost. For every German soldier killed at least 5 Soviet soldiers lost their lives.

kibwen 4y ago
> Putin clearly stated he has no such intentions If Putin told me the sky was blue, I'd go outside and check. To describe Putin's relationship with the truth as "tenuous" would be far more generous than he deserves.
- UltraViolence 4y ago
  For all his faults and crimes I do believe he's sincere on this. He merely wants us to keep out of "his" backyard. Read: former Soviet states are off-limits for NATO and EU membership. We've been provoking him by offering (and sometimes even bribing and prodding) former Soviet states to become NATO members. I'm no Putin fan, but I do believe he has a point here.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    But accepting that would just mean that e.g. Poland couldn't join the EU and would have to remain, even forced by the West to not make Putin sad, a Russian vassal state. Who can accept such a world order, where a tier 2 power holds everyone hostage and demands to be treated as an empire? Imagine if the British expected to still control all of the empire they once had and demanded the US, Russia and China stop India from going its own way.
    - UltraViolence 4y ago
      If Russia is willing to fight a war over Ukraine, then you've got to ask yourself how important is Ukraine to us? Keeping in mind that this war could easily spiral out of control and into a nuclear Holocaust, killing approximately 5 billion (!!) people (this estimate was only recently computed, I think I even read about it on HN). For me the answer is "Not very." I hope the Ukrainians win, but if they don't I won't lose any sleep over it. All this talk that this war being an existential threat to the West wold and that we must win it at all cost is simply preposterous.
      - luckylion 4y ago
        > For me the answer is "Not very." Sure, I understand that response. Tomorrow the question will be "how important is Poland to us, really?", and the day after that it will be asked about Germany and France. And it's quite reasonable to always answer "well, I don't really care about country X so much that I'm willing to kill 5bn people over its independence". But you will either end up with the whole world living as Russia's slaves, or you'll end up with a war when someone says "no, I'm not okay with that". Only that you'll have given Russia a lot of infrastructure to steal and re-use when that day finally comes.
  - infamia 4y ago
    > For all his faults and crimes I do believe he's sincere on this. He merely wants us to keep out of "his" backyard. Putin gave a three hour speech detailing precisely why he invaded, which is an old Russian claim that can be summed up with, the Ukrainians aren't a real people. The way he has fought this war (e.g. filtration camps) supports those the contents that speech. If Putin's goal was to prevent Ukraine from joinig NATO, he got that done in 2014 after annexing Crimea. It would have been impossible for Ukraine to join NATO due to it's ongoing border dispute with the Russians. Territorial disputes are a virtual non-stater according to NATO application policies. Zelensky even offered to never join NATO, yet Putin attacked all the same. When speaking about the conquests of Peter the Great, Putin said, "It seems it has fallen to us, too, to reclaim and strengthen,", where he was clearly referring to Ukraine. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61767191 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61767191
    - justsomehnguy 4y ago
      Can I ask you to read the actual treaty [0] and point where exactly "Territorial disputes are a virtual non-stater according to NATO application policies"? And what about Cyprus? [0] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht...
      - infamia 4y ago
        Sure, the text is here: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_24733.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_24733.htm "Prospective members will have to have: Demonstrated a commitment to and respect for OSCE norms and principles, including the resolution of ethnic disputes, external territorial disputes including irredentist claims or internal jurisdictional disputes by peaceful means" I first heard, the argument put forth General Patreaus. He has mentioned it several times on various television programs when asked what he thought about claims that Russia invaded to keep Ukraine out of NATO. That motivated me to look up the passage. I'm not certaint what you mean about Cypress? It has not applied for NATO membership. Edit: the ideas behind the above quote seems likely to be based on the langjage in Article 1 of the NATO Charter. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht... "Article 1 The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations."

kibwen 4y ago

> Putin clearly stated he has no such intentions If Putin told me the sky was blue, I'd go outside and check. To describe Putin's relationship with the truth as "tenuous" would be far more generous than he deserves.

UltraViolence 4y ago
For all his faults and crimes I do believe he's sincere on this. He merely wants us to keep out of "his" backyard. Read: former Soviet states are off-limits for NATO and EU membership. We've been provoking him by offering (and sometimes even bribing and prodding) former Soviet states to become NATO members. I'm no Putin fan, but I do believe he has a point here.
- luckylion 4y ago
  But accepting that would just mean that e.g. Poland couldn't join the EU and would have to remain, even forced by the West to not make Putin sad, a Russian vassal state. Who can accept such a world order, where a tier 2 power holds everyone hostage and demands to be treated as an empire? Imagine if the British expected to still control all of the empire they once had and demanded the US, Russia and China stop India from going its own way.
  - UltraViolence 4y ago
    If Russia is willing to fight a war over Ukraine, then you've got to ask yourself how important is Ukraine to us? Keeping in mind that this war could easily spiral out of control and into a nuclear Holocaust, killing approximately 5 billion (!!) people (this estimate was only recently computed, I think I even read about it on HN). For me the answer is "Not very." I hope the Ukrainians win, but if they don't I won't lose any sleep over it. All this talk that this war being an existential threat to the West wold and that we must win it at all cost is simply preposterous.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      > For me the answer is "Not very." Sure, I understand that response. Tomorrow the question will be "how important is Poland to us, really?", and the day after that it will be asked about Germany and France. And it's quite reasonable to always answer "well, I don't really care about country X so much that I'm willing to kill 5bn people over its independence". But you will either end up with the whole world living as Russia's slaves, or you'll end up with a war when someone says "no, I'm not okay with that". Only that you'll have given Russia a lot of infrastructure to steal and re-use when that day finally comes.
- infamia 4y ago
  > For all his faults and crimes I do believe he's sincere on this. He merely wants us to keep out of "his" backyard. Putin gave a three hour speech detailing precisely why he invaded, which is an old Russian claim that can be summed up with, the Ukrainians aren't a real people. The way he has fought this war (e.g. filtration camps) supports those the contents that speech. If Putin's goal was to prevent Ukraine from joinig NATO, he got that done in 2014 after annexing Crimea. It would have been impossible for Ukraine to join NATO due to it's ongoing border dispute with the Russians. Territorial disputes are a virtual non-stater according to NATO application policies. Zelensky even offered to never join NATO, yet Putin attacked all the same. When speaking about the conquests of Peter the Great, Putin said, "It seems it has fallen to us, too, to reclaim and strengthen,", where he was clearly referring to Ukraine. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61767191 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61767191
  - justsomehnguy 4y ago
    Can I ask you to read the actual treaty [0] and point where exactly "Territorial disputes are a virtual non-stater according to NATO application policies"? And what about Cyprus? [0] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht...
    - infamia 4y ago
      Sure, the text is here: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_24733.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_24733.htm "Prospective members will have to have: Demonstrated a commitment to and respect for OSCE norms and principles, including the resolution of ethnic disputes, external territorial disputes including irredentist claims or internal jurisdictional disputes by peaceful means" I first heard, the argument put forth General Patreaus. He has mentioned it several times on various television programs when asked what he thought about claims that Russia invaded to keep Ukraine out of NATO. That motivated me to look up the passage. I'm not certaint what you mean about Cypress? It has not applied for NATO membership. Edit: the ideas behind the above quote seems likely to be based on the langjage in Article 1 of the NATO Charter. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht... "Article 1 The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations."