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So how much can I buy solar power for at midnight? Because coal is the same price at noon and now. That solar is cheaper at noon doesn't mean much. It's a bit

So how much can I buy solar power for at midnight? Because coal is the same price at noon and now. That solar is cheaper at noon doesn't mean much. It's a bit like saying that coal is free underground.

DFHippie 4y ago
Those are different goalposts.
- thrown_22 4y ago
  You're right. We can just turn off society between sunset and sunrise. Who needs things like refrigeration and life support on all the time anyway?
  - DFHippie 4y ago
    Let me translate my post: You changed the topic.
    - thrown_22 4y ago
      Let me explain my point: power is not energy and energy is not power. Renewable power is cheap in the same way someone whose head is dipped in liquid nitrogen and whose feet are in molten lead in over all pretty comfortable.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
The chart Figure 2-1 Comparison of current cost estimates with previous work also has wind power, which is also cheaper than coal, and has been for longer than solar has. Plus, Australia has hydro, which can be varied to fill the gaps. > Greater confidence in role of wind and solar PV: GenCost previously included a Diverse technology scenario which explored the case where deployment of variable renewables was more limited and other technologies played a larger role. Stakeholder feedback received during AEMO’s 2020-21 Australian scenario development process found that it was unlikely that alternative technologies will be able to compete in a significant way with renewables. This reflects relatively uncompetitive gas prices, a lack of confidence in the future cost competitiveness of CCS technologies and abundant low-cost renewable resources. Their 2030 forcasts also include costs for grid integration for different percentages of variable renewable.
js8 4y ago
> So how much can I buy solar power for at midnight? That's a bit like saying that there is no point in growing crops in Europe, because of the winter.
- thrown_22 4y ago
  We can store grain for a year. How long can we store electricity for 15 minutes in most grids with a dollars for every five minutes further.
  - js8 4y ago
    It's simply not true we cannot store energy. We can produce hydrogen, methane, methanol, ethanol, biomass, steel, aluminum, cement, sillicon.. These are all energy intense processes that can help store energy. In fact, when it comes to food production (which is really just a form of energy), there are 3 major strategies how we deal with winter: storage (e.g. granary), shifting production (e.g. eating a pig you raised during the year), and trade (e.g. buying oranges from a tropical country). We can apply all these to electricity as well.
    - thrown_22 4y ago
      >It's simply not true we cannot store energy. Which grid can store enough energy to run for a week if all renewables are offline? Hint: there aren't any.
      - Gibbon1 4y ago
        Show me a week in the last two years when California's renewables didn't produce any power https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html
      - js8 4y ago
        This is partly because massive energy storage (on the order of weeks) isn't really needed until you hit around 75% intermittent renewables (wind and solar), which is not yet the case anywhere in the world. But the technology does exist, and it's gonna be deployed eventually.
Schroedingersat 4y ago
About $70/MWh and falling. https://helioscsp.com/the-cost-of-concentrated-solar-power-fell-by-47-between-2010-and-2019/ https://helioscsp.com/the-cost-of-concentrated-solar-power-f...

DFHippie 4y ago

Those are different goalposts.

thrown_22 4y ago
You're right. We can just turn off society between sunset and sunrise. Who needs things like refrigeration and life support on all the time anyway?
- DFHippie 4y ago
  Let me translate my post: You changed the topic.
  - thrown_22 4y ago
    Let me explain my point: power is not energy and energy is not power. Renewable power is cheap in the same way someone whose head is dipped in liquid nitrogen and whose feet are in molten lead in over all pretty comfortable.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

The chart Figure 2-1 Comparison of current cost estimates with previous work also has wind power, which is also cheaper than coal, and has been for longer than solar has. Plus, Australia has hydro, which can be varied to fill the gaps. > Greater confidence in role of wind and solar PV: GenCost previously included a Diverse technology scenario which explored the case where deployment of variable renewables was more limited and other technologies played a larger role. Stakeholder feedback received during AEMO’s 2020-21 Australian scenario development process found that it was unlikely that alternative technologies will be able to compete in a significant way with renewables. This reflects relatively uncompetitive gas prices, a lack of confidence in the future cost competitiveness of CCS technologies and abundant low-cost renewable resources. Their 2030 forcasts also include costs for grid integration for different percentages of variable renewable.

js8 4y ago

> So how much can I buy solar power for at midnight? That's a bit like saying that there is no point in growing crops in Europe, because of the winter.

thrown_22 4y ago
We can store grain for a year. How long can we store electricity for 15 minutes in most grids with a dollars for every five minutes further.
- js8 4y ago
  It's simply not true we cannot store energy. We can produce hydrogen, methane, methanol, ethanol, biomass, steel, aluminum, cement, sillicon.. These are all energy intense processes that can help store energy. In fact, when it comes to food production (which is really just a form of energy), there are 3 major strategies how we deal with winter: storage (e.g. granary), shifting production (e.g. eating a pig you raised during the year), and trade (e.g. buying oranges from a tropical country). We can apply all these to electricity as well.
  - thrown_22 4y ago
    >It's simply not true we cannot store energy. Which grid can store enough energy to run for a week if all renewables are offline? Hint: there aren't any.
    - Gibbon1 4y ago
      Show me a week in the last two years when California's renewables didn't produce any power https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html
    - js8 4y ago
      This is partly because massive energy storage (on the order of weeks) isn't really needed until you hit around 75% intermittent renewables (wind and solar), which is not yet the case anywhere in the world. But the technology does exist, and it's gonna be deployed eventually.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

About $70/MWh and falling. https://helioscsp.com/the-cost-of-concentrated-solar-power-fell-by-47-between-2010-and-2019/ https://helioscsp.com/the-cost-of-concentrated-solar-power-f...