5 ms·

I got to observe a similar thing firsthand in Japan: People staying late into the night, sleeping at their desks, wearing themselves out, even to the point of k

I got to observe a similar thing firsthand in Japan: People staying late into the night, sleeping at their desks, wearing themselves out, even to the point of karoshi ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi ). But in terms of actual productivity, I observed lots of activity and little actual achievement. What buoyed their productivity was the technology of a freshly rebuilt economy and industry post-WW2, which, coupled with a few innovative ideas, gave Japanese industry a powerhouse advantage to the point that it almost didn't matter what the workers did. They could have worked 2 hours a day and still had the same output (not the factory line workers, of course). When the economy went sour in the 90s, there was no change in work ethic; people still worked late into the night, and still had the same levels of activity with the same levels of achievement, but the technological industrial advantage had dissipated over the years and they were no longer competitive. Same input, less output. Long hours work against you. We've studied this to death, and the results are clear.

glandium 4y ago
Thankfully, Japanese GenZs seem not to accept this BS anymore. Even more so since Corona.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  Good to know. "yes, please let me work to death for this Japanese boomer who still uses floppy disks." I don't think so Japanese lack of productivity stems from a lot of hard-headedness from their management. Anything that disrupts this is welcome in my book
- sh4rks 4y ago
  Yep, now they are free to live their lives! (Netflix and video games)
  - bobkazamakis 4y ago
    projection (running fake kickstarter funds to fleece voters)
    - sh4rks 4y ago
      People who say "project" are usually projecting themselves
- rippercushions 4y ago
  It's less not accepting and more not being able to opt into it. The gap in income, job security and status between permanent hires (salarymen) and temporary roles (haken, freeter, etc) is massive and getting worse every day.
Roark66 4y ago
Well, I had an interesting experience as one of few westerners in a western branch of aJapanese company that had 200+ of Japanese staff. We westerners left every single day at 5pm (unless there were real technical emergencies). All of the Japanese had to stay to approximately 8pm. Sometimes longer. Despite the fact this is actually illegal in the "host country" they still did it with no overtime paid(or claimed) . I had many Japanese friends in this company over the years and I knew they would much prefer to be off at 5pm as we were, but every time we talked about it it turned out they are 100% powerless to change it. The company not only provides a prestigious job (which was extremely important), but also provided housing in the host country, a visa, good schools for the kids etc. Additionally, every time we discussed it I got an impression they really have it easy here in comparison to how much they would have to work back in Japan. So all those people really didn't want to be sent back. On the rare occasion when I had to work on a weekend and overnight, HR contacted me asking me to fill the overtime form :-o I write this not as a complaint. I considered it one of my best jobs and if not that I wanted to be in a different role I would still be there, but even now years later I still remember having this weird feeling of there being a very real discrimination against other people on the basis of culture and not being able to do anything about it.
- LtWorf 4y ago
  Did anyone just try to leave at 5 and see what happened?
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  At my company (Japanese), the average ‘salaryman” workday was 8-6, or so, with 6-8 hours on Saturdays. The time was paid, though. It wasn’t “time and a half,” like in the US, but people were paid for the time. Managers weren’t paid for extra hours, but engineers were.
- ccbccccbbcccbb 4y ago
  Modern self-slavery at its best.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
Tade0 4y ago
There's an interesting explanation regarding why this style of work still persists: https://youtu.be/JQNyzbMTEQY https://youtu.be/JQNyzbMTEQY Apparently overtime is... included in advance taking the average for the company, so people feel obliged to do it since technically they already got paid. It's basically like that team-building exercise with a dozen people trying to move a broomstick down when each person is holding it with one finger. The default reaction is to send it flying. In any case 40% of Japanese workers are part-time - I've met one - she lived in Italy and her line of work was writing articles about life there and she couldn't pick up more hours even if she wanted to. She said it was increasingly common for people to be employed like that.
- nicolas_t 4y ago
  > In any case 40% of Japanese workers are part-time - It's actually 45% of Japanese women workers. The percentage of men being part time is much lower around 12%. A big reason why your friend struggles finding anything else is that she's a woman and that Japan is an intensely sexist society.
- krisoft 4y ago
  A Japanese worker living in Italy and writing about life there can be only an exception in any sense.
- InCityDreams 4y ago
  On the whole, italian part-time hours are fixed. Like fixed. This is to allow people to go to a second, or third, job on time. You can request they change ie come in early, stay later but no is backed up by law. Elastic clauses (contracts) exist, but the employer oays a hefty premium, and even then can only request a certain number/ percentage of hours are 'extra'. All this is for legal employment,as opposed to cash-in-hand jobs.
YetAnotherNick 4y ago
> Long hours work against you. We've studied this to death, and the results are clear. While I get what you are trying to say, but this is not always true. There have been times where I pulled up all nighter and produced good work, specially during college or some project I am deeply invested in. But similar thing can't be achieved in a big org though. If I am expected to work for more than 5-6 hours a day to meet deadline in the office, the quality of work invariably declines. John Carmack also defended working long hours, and admittedly he is one of the most productive developer.
- Nursie 4y ago
  Once in a while? Sure. “We have an emergency, the service is screwed, we really need it not to be” “We have to deliver by the end of the week but we haven’t finished testing everything, we need some extra effort for the next couple of days to fix and validate as things come up” These can work, in my experience, but it can’t become routine and you have to be prepared for a higher than average error rate from your people.
  - imafish 4y ago
    > you have to be prepared for a higher than average error rate from your people. Exactly this. From first hand experience, when forced to deliver under time pressure, I cut corners. This means, I might be able to deliver the feature. But the tradeoff is it adds technical debt and physical stress, which needs to be dealt with afterwards. Furthermore, if you have a family, it also takes a toll on family life.
- koonsolo 4y ago
  At what time did you start working that day when doing the all-nighter?

glandium 4y ago

Thankfully, Japanese GenZs seem not to accept this BS anymore. Even more so since Corona.

raverbashing 4y ago
Good to know. "yes, please let me work to death for this Japanese boomer who still uses floppy disks." I don't think so Japanese lack of productivity stems from a lot of hard-headedness from their management. Anything that disrupts this is welcome in my book
sh4rks 4y ago
Yep, now they are free to live their lives! (Netflix and video games)
- bobkazamakis 4y ago
  projection (running fake kickstarter funds to fleece voters)
  - sh4rks 4y ago
    People who say "project" are usually projecting themselves
rippercushions 4y ago
It's less not accepting and more not being able to opt into it. The gap in income, job security and status between permanent hires (salarymen) and temporary roles (haken, freeter, etc) is massive and getting worse every day.

Roark66 4y ago

Well, I had an interesting experience as one of few westerners in a western branch of aJapanese company that had 200+ of Japanese staff. We westerners left every single day at 5pm (unless there were real technical emergencies). All of the Japanese had to stay to approximately 8pm. Sometimes longer. Despite the fact this is actually illegal in the "host country" they still did it with no overtime paid(or claimed) . I had many Japanese friends in this company over the years and I knew they would much prefer to be off at 5pm as we were, but every time we talked about it it turned out they are 100% powerless to change it. The company not only provides a prestigious job (which was extremely important), but also provided housing in the host country, a visa, good schools for the kids etc. Additionally, every time we discussed it I got an impression they really have it easy here in comparison to how much they would have to work back in Japan. So all those people really didn't want to be sent back. On the rare occasion when I had to work on a weekend and overnight, HR contacted me asking me to fill the overtime form :-o I write this not as a complaint. I considered it one of my best jobs and if not that I wanted to be in a different role I would still be there, but even now years later I still remember having this weird feeling of there being a very real discrimination against other people on the basis of culture and not being able to do anything about it.

LtWorf 4y ago
Did anyone just try to leave at 5 and see what happened?
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
At my company (Japanese), the average ‘salaryman” workday was 8-6, or so, with 6-8 hours on Saturdays. The time was paid, though. It wasn’t “time and a half,” like in the US, but people were paid for the time. Managers weren’t paid for extra hours, but engineers were.
ccbccccbbcccbb 4y ago
Modern self-slavery at its best.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

Tade0 4y ago

There's an interesting explanation regarding why this style of work still persists: https://youtu.be/JQNyzbMTEQY https://youtu.be/JQNyzbMTEQY Apparently overtime is... included in advance taking the average for the company, so people feel obliged to do it since technically they already got paid. It's basically like that team-building exercise with a dozen people trying to move a broomstick down when each person is holding it with one finger. The default reaction is to send it flying. In any case 40% of Japanese workers are part-time - I've met one - she lived in Italy and her line of work was writing articles about life there and she couldn't pick up more hours even if she wanted to. She said it was increasingly common for people to be employed like that.

nicolas_t 4y ago
> In any case 40% of Japanese workers are part-time - It's actually 45% of Japanese women workers. The percentage of men being part time is much lower around 12%. A big reason why your friend struggles finding anything else is that she's a woman and that Japan is an intensely sexist society.
krisoft 4y ago
A Japanese worker living in Italy and writing about life there can be only an exception in any sense.
InCityDreams 4y ago
On the whole, italian part-time hours are fixed. Like fixed. This is to allow people to go to a second, or third, job on time. You can request they change ie come in early, stay later but no is backed up by law. Elastic clauses (contracts) exist, but the employer oays a hefty premium, and even then can only request a certain number/ percentage of hours are 'extra'. All this is for legal employment,as opposed to cash-in-hand jobs.

YetAnotherNick 4y ago

> Long hours work against you. We've studied this to death, and the results are clear. While I get what you are trying to say, but this is not always true. There have been times where I pulled up all nighter and produced good work, specially during college or some project I am deeply invested in. But similar thing can't be achieved in a big org though. If I am expected to work for more than 5-6 hours a day to meet deadline in the office, the quality of work invariably declines. John Carmack also defended working long hours, and admittedly he is one of the most productive developer.

Nursie 4y ago
Once in a while? Sure. “We have an emergency, the service is screwed, we really need it not to be” “We have to deliver by the end of the week but we haven’t finished testing everything, we need some extra effort for the next couple of days to fix and validate as things come up” These can work, in my experience, but it can’t become routine and you have to be prepared for a higher than average error rate from your people.
- imafish 4y ago
  > you have to be prepared for a higher than average error rate from your people. Exactly this. From first hand experience, when forced to deliver under time pressure, I cut corners. This means, I might be able to deliver the feature. But the tradeoff is it adds technical debt and physical stress, which needs to be dealt with afterwards. Furthermore, if you have a family, it also takes a toll on family life.
koonsolo 4y ago
At what time did you start working that day when doing the all-nighter?