5 ms·

I'm 44 years old and I've been doing this since before a lot of HN folks were born. A lot a lot of all-nighters and all-dayers and all-weekenders. And you know

I'm 44 years old and I've been doing this since before a lot of HN folks were born. A lot a lot of all-nighters and all-dayers and all-weekenders. And you know what? Mostly it wasn't worth the time I could have spent elsewhere. If all-nighters will make you rich, by all means, pull em. And then once you're rich, STOP. But if all you're doing is spending your time and youth and energy to make somebody else rich and don't get rich yourself, you're a sucker. And if that person expects you to do 30 hours at a time at your workstation so they can get rich, and you do it, they're a scumbag and you're their bitch. Don't be anybody's bitch. Don't chase after that carrot dangling from a stick in front of you forever. I wasted so many hours, days, years of my life putting my heart and soul and guts into startups that nobody remembers, that mostly never made any mark or ripple anywhere, and I never got rich doing it. Now I get up at 8am, I start working at 9am, I peace the fuck out at 5pm and I don't think about work code until 9am the next morning. On weekends and evenings I write my own code, and I hang out with my wife and my cat and I watch old movies. That sounds like old people shit when you're 22 and all this stuff is new and you think that if you just put in enough crunches, that sempai or the Money Gods will notice you and throw some your way. And yet there are millions of us in this industry, and a lot of us are well paid, but most of us don't ever get rich and we damn sure don't change the world. We just make useless crap that makes rich dudes richer that will be utterly forgotten by history, and that's not worth giving up your youth and energy and life to. I know most of y'all won't believe me. That's how this whole youth/middle age thing works, right? Stupid old man who never got successful grousing at the kids. But man, I'd give anything to have not done most of the work I've ever done for other people, and spent that time wandering penniless around the world instead. Or had better luck early enough to make enough money to stop working a long time ago. But the key word there is "luck". That's almost always all it is. Go home at 5, man. Trust me. The code and the capitalism will still be there in the morning, but that great meal, that night of partying, that mysterious stranger across the bar? They may not be.

lvturner 4y ago
Thank you. Not once has my overtime paid off in any sense - not even been recognised, costing both my physical and mental health. Never again.
- maccard 4y ago
  I definitely come from the "clock out at 5:30" train of thought but: > Not once has my overtime paid off in any sense - not even been recognised, costing both my physical and mental health. I hard disagree. In an environment where the norm, and expectation is to leave on time, a _very rare_ overtime ask can make a significant difference. There's a difference between an occasional ask of overtime, and a culture of the team working 50+ hour weeks. In that world, the difference between a 50 hour and a 55 hour (i.e. 2 evenings of staying later than normal) is minimal, and doesn't pay off. Some of my biggest successes in my career have been because of overtime, a very occasional weekend, but they are the absolute exception, not the norm.
  - lvturner 4y ago
    I’m talking about my personal experience. I don’t think anyone is in a position to disagree with it, much less “hard disagree”. While your point is valid, your opener could use some work.
  - therealdrag0 4y ago
    Same. My median week is less than 40 hrs. But I have occasions of flow state or critical problems that I just can’t let go (not to mention lots of shower cycles spent thinking about work), and I think it’s been good for my career.
elliottcarlson 4y ago
42, and learned the hard way as well -- it has serious ramifications both on your personal physical and mental health, as well as your relationships. I get more out of my team by treating them as humans that I know have a life outside of work; I want them to have a healthy work life balance, and I will lead by example.
KingOfCoders 4y ago
50+ and I had lots of all-nighters. Once when I was usually leaving at 6am other were coming to work. Home, bed, breakfast, showering, back to work at 10am. Wasn't worth it.
hazaskull 4y ago
52. Not been pulling all-nighters (okay maybe once or twice in exceptional circumstances that were also appreciated as such by the management after) as I've always believed your point to be right. If you're not (in part) owning the company then it should not be your life unless you don't have one and don't care. To each his own but an environment where overtime is the norm (even if driven by employees themselves) is not a healthy place to be when you have a family. Besides, when a company is so successful to need more than the normal hours available then the onus is on the leadership to hire more people; it's in their best interest to not have to rely on such devotion. ...and if crunch-time is instead caused by the company _not_ being successful and not having the money to hire people then toxicity is pretty much guaranteed in short order.
automatic6131 4y ago
I'm 30. I realised this as soon as I entered the workforce. I can count on one hand the number of times I've work passed 5pm and I've never stayed after 7pm.
- prox 4y ago
  Me not so much. I have done way too many spec work when I started working. Basically it’s slave labour. If you read this fresh from graduation and you think people give you opportunities, and “chances” by working for free, or intern stuff, or low ball wages with the “promise” of upgrading… skip that stuff. To people just starting out and anyone : you are a business. More money needs to come in than energy wasted and going out. Your year ends balance should be positive, both monetary and energy wise. At the end of the year, not just 3 years into a startups future that might never arrive.
quickthrower2 4y ago
I did that shit at 22! Not built for long hours and never was. I deeply connect with the mathematicians apology where he says 4 hours is enough work then watch cricket. Although I prefer to say kayak or something. In remember being that age and angry that my boss wanted me to work through lunch to fix some absent persons bug. Because I had done 5 hours already and humans need a break.
nprateem 4y ago
I recognised this from day 1. I worked for a new business once, and they whinged because "everyone else stays past 5:30 but you always leave on time". I just replied "it's not my business". They never said anything again. However, that established clear boundaries. Once - and only once - I went in on a weekend for some out of hours work (a database migration or something), and in the following pay review they gave me a large raise specficially citing that I worked when they needed me. If I'd always provided free labour I doubt I'd have got the same raise. The funny thing was, they asked me once what they could do to improve things and I suggested flexitime. They said they'd get back to me. A few days later they came back and said, "we're going to be honest. Everyone else out there stays past 5:30 for nothing. We're not legally allowed to only give you flexitime, so we won't give it to anyone since they already work for free". Fair enough. My colleagues trying to earn brownie points screwed us all over by providing free work. Boundaries are important. Don't let bosses treat you like a mug.
Roark66 4y ago
Ah, but the point people are making in this thread is completely different. It is against working late without pay. One of the companies I made the most money in at the beginning of my career was one where often worked 7 days a week. But on weekdays I left at 5pm and I got more money for overtime weekend pay than in the rest of the month.
- teh_klev 4y ago
  Many of the roles folks are discussing here don't offer overtime payments. We're expected to comply with a wee line in our contracts that goes along the lines of "from time to time you may be required to work additional hours....". Then it turns out "from time to time" means every week and you don't get paid overtime or time off in lieu. But even if I was offered paid overtime, and at a rate higher than my regular salary, I wouldn't work overtime. I'm in my mid-50's and Monday to Friday, 9am-5:30pm is enough time to spend doing work. I have hobbies and interests outside of work that are far more interesting.
  - Roark66 4y ago
    >Many of the roles folks are discussing here don't offer overtime payments. We're expected to comply with a wee line in our contracts that goes along the lines of "from time to time you may be required to work additional hours....". Wait, what?? Every single of my employment contracts had a line like this, but I always assumed it was paid work. I can't imagine it meaning "from time to time you may be required to work additional hours for free". In fact all the contracts I remember that had this sentence also had an "overtime" section where there were things like:"if you work over 10h on a weekday every additional hour is at overtime pay rate of 1.5x, all hours worked on Saturday are at 1.5x rate, Sundays and Bank Holidays at double rate". That was pretty much standard in many companies I worked at. So not only the contract stated those additional hours were paid. They were worth more than the "normal time" beyond a certain amount of time worked per day. In addition one company I worked at even had a section in there that if I work more than 24h straight there must be at least 24h of rest. If I work Sundays I have an option of taking Sunday double pay or having a weekday off no later than 14 days later if I want. Etc. Etc. Good companies exist. Anyone miserable in their work, please do look for a better place. Unfortunately many people just don't like changing jobs. My own sister was "stuck" in a miserable job for 5 years because I couldn't convince her to put real effort into looking for another one. However, having said all that I have to say I had ocassional situations for various reasons when I didn't claim overtime. There are times one can benefit more by not asking for overtime. For example I once had a job at a small family run business with a profit share bonus at the end of the year. That bonus was worth a lot more to me than throwing a wrench in the works by declining to work on some emergency in a middle of a night for sake of a few hours of overtime here and there. And during my time there the business went from employing 4 people in a basement to 30 people in a shiny new "office unit" in a business park. I had a big share in this success and I was compensated well there. Then another job was in a large company that paid me more than double of what I made before as a normal daily rate. I think there was an office move on a weekend once when I never claimed overtime for because my request for an overtime form were met with silence. It was worth more to me to "give up that overtime" than raise stink for my manager risking my contract will not get renewed. So my point is, you should decide if you want to be paid overtime. Is your free time worth double the money to you or is it unsellable? Perhaps you have family you prefer to spend time with? If you do, look for a job that treats you well. That is why one of the worst things that can happen to an economy IMO is unemployment. I'll take inflation every day over unemployment. Sure inflation consumes your savings, but high rate of unemployment makes work miserable for everyone. I still remember when we used to have 20% unemployment in the 90s in Poland. Back them the power dynamic was such that when your boss asked you to work overtime you didn't even ask for an overtime form. You pretended to be glad the company offers you great opportunity to spend time with them on a weekend instead of being "bored at home". Seriously, I had colleagues say this to me with a straight face.
teh_klev 4y ago
Just on the wrong side of my mid-50's here. The previous company I worked for completely burned me out when was 50-51 after they were bought out. I'd been with them for a long time (double figures). I was then made redundant and took a break. I ended up despising the industry I'd once enjoyed working in. I did a bit of freelancing but my heart wasn't in it any more. Then Covid came along in 2020 and my freelance work dried up. I reluctantly and fearfully started looking for full time work and was lucky to join a company that takes good care not to burn out their staff. Been here now for a decent amount of time and rarely work more than my contracted 37.5 hours a week, and it's fully remote. > Don't be anybody's bitch. Don't chase after that carrot dangling from a stick in front of you forever. This. I was made promises about being "looked after" by the last company, especially around the time it was up for sale. It was all bullshit. In the end, work your contracted hours then go home/switch off. Don't let your life be held hostage by companies that expect you to burn both ends of the candle. Burn out is no fun.
nullcipher 4y ago
> If all-nighters will make you rich, by all means, pull em. And then once you're rich, STOP. What is rich? 100k? 5m? 100m? I know what your answer will be: "you decide what is rich". Well, maybe the people who work a lot want to be a lot more rich than you. I doubt anyone will trade becoming rich for meeting mysterious strangers at bars and partying at night. Both these things involve drinking, and really it's just a drug out of misery. Ultimately, your gripe is not that you worked a lot but just that you didn't make money out of it. Now, you are just fantasizing and romanticizing being penniless (without ever being in such a situation).
sirsinsalot 4y ago
Thankfully I realised this at 20. I've never been an employee, I bill through the roof per-hour and prioritise work/life balance. Life is for living. Whatever that means to you, not your boss. Even when my boss is me, working out what life means is tough. It won't be found in toil for others.

lvturner 4y ago

Thank you. Not once has my overtime paid off in any sense - not even been recognised, costing both my physical and mental health. Never again.

maccard 4y ago
I definitely come from the "clock out at 5:30" train of thought but: > Not once has my overtime paid off in any sense - not even been recognised, costing both my physical and mental health. I hard disagree. In an environment where the norm, and expectation is to leave on time, a _very rare_ overtime ask can make a significant difference. There's a difference between an occasional ask of overtime, and a culture of the team working 50+ hour weeks. In that world, the difference between a 50 hour and a 55 hour (i.e. 2 evenings of staying later than normal) is minimal, and doesn't pay off. Some of my biggest successes in my career have been because of overtime, a very occasional weekend, but they are the absolute exception, not the norm.
- lvturner 4y ago
  I’m talking about my personal experience. I don’t think anyone is in a position to disagree with it, much less “hard disagree”. While your point is valid, your opener could use some work.
- therealdrag0 4y ago
  Same. My median week is less than 40 hrs. But I have occasions of flow state or critical problems that I just can’t let go (not to mention lots of shower cycles spent thinking about work), and I think it’s been good for my career.

elliottcarlson 4y ago

42, and learned the hard way as well -- it has serious ramifications both on your personal physical and mental health, as well as your relationships. I get more out of my team by treating them as humans that I know have a life outside of work; I want them to have a healthy work life balance, and I will lead by example.

KingOfCoders 4y ago

50+ and I had lots of all-nighters. Once when I was usually leaving at 6am other were coming to work. Home, bed, breakfast, showering, back to work at 10am. Wasn't worth it.

hazaskull 4y ago

52. Not been pulling all-nighters (okay maybe once or twice in exceptional circumstances that were also appreciated as such by the management after) as I've always believed your point to be right. If you're not (in part) owning the company then it should not be your life unless you don't have one and don't care. To each his own but an environment where overtime is the norm (even if driven by employees themselves) is not a healthy place to be when you have a family. Besides, when a company is so successful to need more than the normal hours available then the onus is on the leadership to hire more people; it's in their best interest to not have to rely on such devotion. ...and if crunch-time is instead caused by the company _not_ being successful and not having the money to hire people then toxicity is pretty much guaranteed in short order.

automatic6131 4y ago

I'm 30. I realised this as soon as I entered the workforce. I can count on one hand the number of times I've work passed 5pm and I've never stayed after 7pm.

prox 4y ago
Me not so much. I have done way too many spec work when I started working. Basically it’s slave labour. If you read this fresh from graduation and you think people give you opportunities, and “chances” by working for free, or intern stuff, or low ball wages with the “promise” of upgrading… skip that stuff. To people just starting out and anyone : you are a business. More money needs to come in than energy wasted and going out. Your year ends balance should be positive, both monetary and energy wise. At the end of the year, not just 3 years into a startups future that might never arrive.

quickthrower2 4y ago

I did that shit at 22! Not built for long hours and never was. I deeply connect with the mathematicians apology where he says 4 hours is enough work then watch cricket. Although I prefer to say kayak or something. In remember being that age and angry that my boss wanted me to work through lunch to fix some absent persons bug. Because I had done 5 hours already and humans need a break.

nprateem 4y ago

I recognised this from day 1. I worked for a new business once, and they whinged because "everyone else stays past 5:30 but you always leave on time". I just replied "it's not my business". They never said anything again. However, that established clear boundaries. Once - and only once - I went in on a weekend for some out of hours work (a database migration or something), and in the following pay review they gave me a large raise specficially citing that I worked when they needed me. If I'd always provided free labour I doubt I'd have got the same raise. The funny thing was, they asked me once what they could do to improve things and I suggested flexitime. They said they'd get back to me. A few days later they came back and said, "we're going to be honest. Everyone else out there stays past 5:30 for nothing. We're not legally allowed to only give you flexitime, so we won't give it to anyone since they already work for free". Fair enough. My colleagues trying to earn brownie points screwed us all over by providing free work. Boundaries are important. Don't let bosses treat you like a mug.

Roark66 4y ago

Ah, but the point people are making in this thread is completely different. It is against working late without pay. One of the companies I made the most money in at the beginning of my career was one where often worked 7 days a week. But on weekdays I left at 5pm and I got more money for overtime weekend pay than in the rest of the month.

teh_klev 4y ago
Many of the roles folks are discussing here don't offer overtime payments. We're expected to comply with a wee line in our contracts that goes along the lines of "from time to time you may be required to work additional hours....". Then it turns out "from time to time" means every week and you don't get paid overtime or time off in lieu. But even if I was offered paid overtime, and at a rate higher than my regular salary, I wouldn't work overtime. I'm in my mid-50's and Monday to Friday, 9am-5:30pm is enough time to spend doing work. I have hobbies and interests outside of work that are far more interesting.
- Roark66 4y ago
  >Many of the roles folks are discussing here don't offer overtime payments. We're expected to comply with a wee line in our contracts that goes along the lines of "from time to time you may be required to work additional hours....". Wait, what?? Every single of my employment contracts had a line like this, but I always assumed it was paid work. I can't imagine it meaning "from time to time you may be required to work additional hours for free". In fact all the contracts I remember that had this sentence also had an "overtime" section where there were things like:"if you work over 10h on a weekday every additional hour is at overtime pay rate of 1.5x, all hours worked on Saturday are at 1.5x rate, Sundays and Bank Holidays at double rate". That was pretty much standard in many companies I worked at. So not only the contract stated those additional hours were paid. They were worth more than the "normal time" beyond a certain amount of time worked per day. In addition one company I worked at even had a section in there that if I work more than 24h straight there must be at least 24h of rest. If I work Sundays I have an option of taking Sunday double pay or having a weekday off no later than 14 days later if I want. Etc. Etc. Good companies exist. Anyone miserable in their work, please do look for a better place. Unfortunately many people just don't like changing jobs. My own sister was "stuck" in a miserable job for 5 years because I couldn't convince her to put real effort into looking for another one. However, having said all that I have to say I had ocassional situations for various reasons when I didn't claim overtime. There are times one can benefit more by not asking for overtime. For example I once had a job at a small family run business with a profit share bonus at the end of the year. That bonus was worth a lot more to me than throwing a wrench in the works by declining to work on some emergency in a middle of a night for sake of a few hours of overtime here and there. And during my time there the business went from employing 4 people in a basement to 30 people in a shiny new "office unit" in a business park. I had a big share in this success and I was compensated well there. Then another job was in a large company that paid me more than double of what I made before as a normal daily rate. I think there was an office move on a weekend once when I never claimed overtime for because my request for an overtime form were met with silence. It was worth more to me to "give up that overtime" than raise stink for my manager risking my contract will not get renewed. So my point is, you should decide if you want to be paid overtime. Is your free time worth double the money to you or is it unsellable? Perhaps you have family you prefer to spend time with? If you do, look for a job that treats you well. That is why one of the worst things that can happen to an economy IMO is unemployment. I'll take inflation every day over unemployment. Sure inflation consumes your savings, but high rate of unemployment makes work miserable for everyone. I still remember when we used to have 20% unemployment in the 90s in Poland. Back them the power dynamic was such that when your boss asked you to work overtime you didn't even ask for an overtime form. You pretended to be glad the company offers you great opportunity to spend time with them on a weekend instead of being "bored at home". Seriously, I had colleagues say this to me with a straight face.

teh_klev 4y ago

Just on the wrong side of my mid-50's here. The previous company I worked for completely burned me out when was 50-51 after they were bought out. I'd been with them for a long time (double figures). I was then made redundant and took a break. I ended up despising the industry I'd once enjoyed working in. I did a bit of freelancing but my heart wasn't in it any more. Then Covid came along in 2020 and my freelance work dried up. I reluctantly and fearfully started looking for full time work and was lucky to join a company that takes good care not to burn out their staff. Been here now for a decent amount of time and rarely work more than my contracted 37.5 hours a week, and it's fully remote. > Don't be anybody's bitch. Don't chase after that carrot dangling from a stick in front of you forever. This. I was made promises about being "looked after" by the last company, especially around the time it was up for sale. It was all bullshit. In the end, work your contracted hours then go home/switch off. Don't let your life be held hostage by companies that expect you to burn both ends of the candle. Burn out is no fun.

nullcipher 4y ago

> If all-nighters will make you rich, by all means, pull em. And then once you're rich, STOP. What is rich? 100k? 5m? 100m? I know what your answer will be: "you decide what is rich". Well, maybe the people who work a lot want to be a lot more rich than you. I doubt anyone will trade becoming rich for meeting mysterious strangers at bars and partying at night. Both these things involve drinking, and really it's just a drug out of misery. Ultimately, your gripe is not that you worked a lot but just that you didn't make money out of it. Now, you are just fantasizing and romanticizing being penniless (without ever being in such a situation).

sirsinsalot 4y ago

Thankfully I realised this at 20. I've never been an employee, I bill through the roof per-hour and prioritise work/life balance. Life is for living. Whatever that means to you, not your boss. Even when my boss is me, working out what life means is tough. It won't be found in toil for others.