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How on earth is this abuse legal? What kind of power play is this? Has the world gone mad and we are all simply sitting and cheering while these people are drag

How on earth is this abuse legal? What kind of power play is this? Has the world gone mad and we are all simply sitting and cheering while these people are dragged through the mud? How can we bring elon’s network of abusive entities to the ground? I am not spending any money on his products but how can we make significant impact? While i understand twitter needs to be made profitable I am now pissed off.

ryanSrich 4y ago
What abuse? Layoffs and firings are legal. Asking people if they want a job back is legal. I fail to see any abuse.
- AlphaSite 4y ago
  Not all bad or abusive behaviour is illegal, it’s just immoral and looked down upon.
- yrgulation 4y ago
  Seriously?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    Labor protections are weak in the united states. It is still legal to hire child labor for agriculture. Approximately a quarter of food in the united states is picked using child labor.
    - yrgulation 4y ago
      A scary thought to be honest. What is the point in being a rich country if not for increasing standards, including those for working conditions?
      - x86x87 4y ago
        there is no point in being a rich country if your citizens, on average, live like crap. you are not rich, a few select ones are wealthy beyond comprehension, there is a constantly shrinking middle class and most people live through hell every freaking day.
- tasty_freeze 4y ago
  If I scream at my wife that she is an ugly, useless person, that is legal. If ten minutes later I say ignore that, I want to be with you, that is also legal. It would still be abusive.
  - ryanSrich 4y ago
    So you’re suggesting Elon abused these employees privately? Because I’m not seeing any public abuse, especially not at any identifiable group of employees. I have no idea what your comment is supposed to mean.
    - ribosometronome 4y ago
      I don't think their point is that the situations are completely equitable but rather that your logic of "it is legal and therefore not abuse" is clearly not the case, as their scenario is abusive and likely legal.
    - tasty_freeze 4y ago
      > So you’re suggesting Elon abused these employees privately No, I didn't. It seems pretty clear that you think his public behavior was AOK. Many people, including me and the person you originally responded to, think Musk has little regard about the effect his behavior has on his new employees. Most people consider getting laid off to be a significant disruption to their lives: their finances, their reputation, and often their mental health. Doing that to 3700 people (or whatever) and then a day later saying, "So do you want to work here or not?" doesn't cancel out what happened a day or two before. Do you understand the old phrase, "you can't unring the bell"?
      - ryanSrich 4y ago
        It doesn’t matter what I think about his public behavior. If you have an example of Elon abusing his employees I’d be interested in seeing it. Posting Reddit-tier memes doesn’t seem like abuse to me. Unless you consider being cringe abuse. You could argue layoffs are abuse. But you’d have to convince me Twitter’s specific implementation of layoffs are more abusive than any other company’s. From what I read, 3 months severance was offered, which they have no legal obligation to offer. That doesn’t seem abusive to me.
- x86x87 4y ago
  Just because something is legal does not mean it's not abusive. Every time you play 5D chess with people's livelihood you are effectively abusing their good will. For Twitter: good luck retaining great employees. Also good luck finding other people willing to work there if through some sort of miracle Twitter survives.
SkipperCat 4y ago
I don't think you can impact him any worse that what he is doing himself. The chaotic nature of his purchase, staff layoffs and general communications have already decimated Twitter's 2023 advertising revenue. We'll have to wait and see how much content will leave the platform. I'm not too bullish on his new revenue plans either. I don't think there are that many people willing to pay $8/mo for verification and to avoid ads. Most people on Twitter are consumers of content and have no need for verification.
lovich 4y ago
This is what most of the working world has had to deal with in the middle class and below for decades. It’s only sticking out as new because it’s happening to highly paid tech workers. I agree it’s bad, but there hasn’t been a lot of worker solidarity in tech so I don’t think anyone should be surprised that it can happen to us too
- x86x87 4y ago
  well... after shirtshows like this one, software engineers are going to be way more open to unions and actually looking our for their own. not a total loss, if the net effect of this is that it catalyses more critical thinking and in the long term we get a better deal
- yrgulation 4y ago
  You are right re solidarity, but thats because we didnt historically see such level of stupidity at such scale. Others layoff people too but in a professional manner. Instead Elon’s acting like a clown. On the point of solidarity, i stopped using amazon when i learned about the abuse their warehouse workers are subjected to. Went from hundreds of £ a month in average to literally 0.
  - lovich 4y ago
    I didn’t even mean solidarity with other types of workers or unions. We’ve failed to have worker solidarity with each other. It might be my bubble but most of the time I see fellow tech workers looking down on anyone who hasn’t gotten a high comp, usually with the implication that if they were only competent the worker would be doing well. As an industry we’re kinda assholes on average and have an overinflated opinion of our individual abilities and an underestimated importance placed on the situation that made us valuable
  - piva00 4y ago
    I've never seen solidarity in my 20 years in tech. I try at every job to instill some sense of class struggle and solidarity but a lot of the techies really believe they'll, eventually, become capitalists themselves. Even outside of the US I still see a disproportionate amount of workers in tech being anti-union, anti-labour regulations, compared to most other industries. Probably due to the gold rush that tech has become the past 30-40 years, so many fortunes and wealth was created that still gives hope to many workers that they can make it at some point. At the same time, we get so many privileges as tech workers that workers from other industries look at us more as part of the rich capitalists class than what we actually are: salaried workers. The class divide also happens from the other side, I had numerous conversations with blue-collar workers (friends, acquaintances) where I had to clearly spell out that I'm on the same team, that I defend the same values about work protection and dignity as they do. Divide-and-conquer between blue-collars and white-collars is very visible and I feel we need to shorten this gap to actually empower workers.
x86x87 4y ago
I was on the fence when it came to Musk before he started peddling dodgecoin and doing his dog and pony crypto show. that's when i knew he jumped the shark. Before that I was considering a Tesla as my next car. And I was actually excited for SpaceX developments. Not anymore. It's a shame to see a clown digging the grave of really nice tech that thousands of people have worked for ages to create (Twitter, Tesla, basically everything Musk touches).
- dehrmann 4y ago
  I'm glad you're seeing him for who he really is, but there wasn't a jump the shark moment. Remember when he tried to build a submarine to rescue those kids in the cave, then called an actual rescuer a "pedo guy?" What's complicated is he's a bit like Travis Kalanick in that he needed an absurd amount of self-confidence to go build Tesla (or Uber). This is the same self-confidence that lead to some questionable decisions later.
  - x86x87 4y ago
    i mean, everyone has their own perspective and can choose to look the other way / explain bad behavior. for me the shark moment was bitcoin. you are right that he did many other things before that that I've maybe written off as eccentricities (although I admit looking back that the signals for who he is where there all along)
dehrmann 4y ago
There was probably a WARN act violation in there, so it's not fully legal.

ryanSrich 4y ago

What abuse? Layoffs and firings are legal. Asking people if they want a job back is legal. I fail to see any abuse.

AlphaSite 4y ago
Not all bad or abusive behaviour is illegal, it’s just immoral and looked down upon.
yrgulation 4y ago
Seriously?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Labor protections are weak in the united states. It is still legal to hire child labor for agriculture. Approximately a quarter of food in the united states is picked using child labor.
  - yrgulation 4y ago
    A scary thought to be honest. What is the point in being a rich country if not for increasing standards, including those for working conditions?
    - x86x87 4y ago
      there is no point in being a rich country if your citizens, on average, live like crap. you are not rich, a few select ones are wealthy beyond comprehension, there is a constantly shrinking middle class and most people live through hell every freaking day.
tasty_freeze 4y ago
If I scream at my wife that she is an ugly, useless person, that is legal. If ten minutes later I say ignore that, I want to be with you, that is also legal. It would still be abusive.
- ryanSrich 4y ago
  So you’re suggesting Elon abused these employees privately? Because I’m not seeing any public abuse, especially not at any identifiable group of employees. I have no idea what your comment is supposed to mean.
  - ribosometronome 4y ago
    I don't think their point is that the situations are completely equitable but rather that your logic of "it is legal and therefore not abuse" is clearly not the case, as their scenario is abusive and likely legal.
  - tasty_freeze 4y ago
    > So you’re suggesting Elon abused these employees privately No, I didn't. It seems pretty clear that you think his public behavior was AOK. Many people, including me and the person you originally responded to, think Musk has little regard about the effect his behavior has on his new employees. Most people consider getting laid off to be a significant disruption to their lives: their finances, their reputation, and often their mental health. Doing that to 3700 people (or whatever) and then a day later saying, "So do you want to work here or not?" doesn't cancel out what happened a day or two before. Do you understand the old phrase, "you can't unring the bell"?
    - ryanSrich 4y ago
      It doesn’t matter what I think about his public behavior. If you have an example of Elon abusing his employees I’d be interested in seeing it. Posting Reddit-tier memes doesn’t seem like abuse to me. Unless you consider being cringe abuse. You could argue layoffs are abuse. But you’d have to convince me Twitter’s specific implementation of layoffs are more abusive than any other company’s. From what I read, 3 months severance was offered, which they have no legal obligation to offer. That doesn’t seem abusive to me.
x86x87 4y ago
Just because something is legal does not mean it's not abusive. Every time you play 5D chess with people's livelihood you are effectively abusing their good will. For Twitter: good luck retaining great employees. Also good luck finding other people willing to work there if through some sort of miracle Twitter survives.

SkipperCat 4y ago

I don't think you can impact him any worse that what he is doing himself. The chaotic nature of his purchase, staff layoffs and general communications have already decimated Twitter's 2023 advertising revenue. We'll have to wait and see how much content will leave the platform. I'm not too bullish on his new revenue plans either. I don't think there are that many people willing to pay $8/mo for verification and to avoid ads. Most people on Twitter are consumers of content and have no need for verification.

lovich 4y ago

This is what most of the working world has had to deal with in the middle class and below for decades. It’s only sticking out as new because it’s happening to highly paid tech workers. I agree it’s bad, but there hasn’t been a lot of worker solidarity in tech so I don’t think anyone should be surprised that it can happen to us too

x86x87 4y ago
well... after shirtshows like this one, software engineers are going to be way more open to unions and actually looking our for their own. not a total loss, if the net effect of this is that it catalyses more critical thinking and in the long term we get a better deal
yrgulation 4y ago
You are right re solidarity, but thats because we didnt historically see such level of stupidity at such scale. Others layoff people too but in a professional manner. Instead Elon’s acting like a clown. On the point of solidarity, i stopped using amazon when i learned about the abuse their warehouse workers are subjected to. Went from hundreds of £ a month in average to literally 0.
- lovich 4y ago
  I didn’t even mean solidarity with other types of workers or unions. We’ve failed to have worker solidarity with each other. It might be my bubble but most of the time I see fellow tech workers looking down on anyone who hasn’t gotten a high comp, usually with the implication that if they were only competent the worker would be doing well. As an industry we’re kinda assholes on average and have an overinflated opinion of our individual abilities and an underestimated importance placed on the situation that made us valuable
- piva00 4y ago
  I've never seen solidarity in my 20 years in tech. I try at every job to instill some sense of class struggle and solidarity but a lot of the techies really believe they'll, eventually, become capitalists themselves. Even outside of the US I still see a disproportionate amount of workers in tech being anti-union, anti-labour regulations, compared to most other industries. Probably due to the gold rush that tech has become the past 30-40 years, so many fortunes and wealth was created that still gives hope to many workers that they can make it at some point. At the same time, we get so many privileges as tech workers that workers from other industries look at us more as part of the rich capitalists class than what we actually are: salaried workers. The class divide also happens from the other side, I had numerous conversations with blue-collar workers (friends, acquaintances) where I had to clearly spell out that I'm on the same team, that I defend the same values about work protection and dignity as they do. Divide-and-conquer between blue-collars and white-collars is very visible and I feel we need to shorten this gap to actually empower workers.

x86x87 4y ago

I was on the fence when it came to Musk before he started peddling dodgecoin and doing his dog and pony crypto show. that's when i knew he jumped the shark. Before that I was considering a Tesla as my next car. And I was actually excited for SpaceX developments. Not anymore. It's a shame to see a clown digging the grave of really nice tech that thousands of people have worked for ages to create (Twitter, Tesla, basically everything Musk touches).

dehrmann 4y ago
I'm glad you're seeing him for who he really is, but there wasn't a jump the shark moment. Remember when he tried to build a submarine to rescue those kids in the cave, then called an actual rescuer a "pedo guy?" What's complicated is he's a bit like Travis Kalanick in that he needed an absurd amount of self-confidence to go build Tesla (or Uber). This is the same self-confidence that lead to some questionable decisions later.
- x86x87 4y ago
  i mean, everyone has their own perspective and can choose to look the other way / explain bad behavior. for me the shark moment was bitcoin. you are right that he did many other things before that that I've maybe written off as eccentricities (although I admit looking back that the signals for who he is where there all along)

dehrmann 4y ago

There was probably a WARN act violation in there, so it's not fully legal.