5 ms·

For the price point it's all embarrassing. I purchased Avocet locks after I saw they gave LPL trouble and a set for my entire house didn't cost as much as this

For the price point it's all embarrassing. I purchased Avocet locks after I saw they gave LPL trouble and a set for my entire house didn't cost as much as this horrible, shitty thing would. This is literally a scam product.

wffurr 4y ago
Not to defend this product, but what’s the threat model for a pick resistant lock? I assume, but don’t actually know, that my biggest risk is having my rear door window smashed and the door opened from inside while I am not home. Lock picking (even raking or bumping) seems like the kind of thing that someone smart enough to figure out how to do is also smart enough not to engage in home burglary. So unless your threat model is the three letter agencies entering and bugging your house, I assume other physical security upgrades should come first.
- bombcar 4y ago
  I think the idea is if the lock makers won't bother protecting from simple attacks, what else have they skimped out on? It's not like the pick-resistant locks are exceptionally more expensive.
  - tartoran 4y ago
    Thats what Im thinking too, it shows carelessness and unprofessionalism from the lock makers. And the high pricepoint is justified even less.
- hinoki 4y ago
  House insurance will cover the robbery if they break the back window to get in. It might be more difficult to file a claim if they rake the lock and don’t leave any trace beyond your missing valuables.
  - mhitza 4y ago
    There's an interesting DEFCON presentation on lock picking forensics[1]. I don't know if there's any certified agency that can do a forensics report which an insurance company would accept, but if there is such a thing, most (all?) lock picking techniques leave marks. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVZzBjK1kmI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVZzBjK1kmI
  - superchroma 4y ago
    this is a very important point
- WalterBright 4y ago
  If the lock is picked, the burglary may go unnoticed for a long time. With a broken window, you'll find out quickly.
  - Simon_O_Rourke 4y ago
    What sort of hokey black hat nonsense is this?
- bergenty 4y ago
  You can pick a lock, steal things a lot of people wouldn’t notice for a very long time and leave like nothing happened. There would be no call to the police, no threat of window alarms etc. easiest way to get away Scott free.
  - ghufran_syed 4y ago
    so this lock plus a hidden camera solves the issue?
    - bergenty 4y ago
      If you review it everyday it might. I know I would never look at the recording.
      - ayewo 4y ago
        There are surveillance products that offer motion detection as a feature. You get notified if unusual movement within your property is detected rather than you having to do the boring task of reviewing surveillance footage.
- JauntyHatAngle 4y ago
  If someone cases your house, they'd still pick targets based on ease and value. If they canvas your house and see a shitty, easily bumped lock, you are now an easier target and they're more likely to break in. I reckon opportunistic break ins it wouldn't make a big difference whether it's this lock or a better one though.
- bagels 4y ago
  Lock picking as others have pointed out is not the most common method of entry. But if you see one lock that is really hard to pick due to good engineering, they probably also spent effort to make it resist other kinds of attacks like kicking the door, etc.
- superchroma 4y ago
  Firstly, locks should be immune to raking. If I can enter your property with a piece of metal in 20 seconds and with no training, the lock manufacturer fucked up. That's casual and you want to deter casual opportunists. So, other than picking, there's a bunch. There's snapping the cylinder, which is common in the UK and only takes pliers, there's using a crowbar against the door to move the frame out of the way around the latch, breaking windows, and more. My threat model doesn't include pickers, for sure, but I'm particularly angry about this product because it's visually distinctive and famous, so unlike a regular lock which is basically a roll of the dice as to its quality, this quietly screams for attention and that's a problem. Thieves do canvas houses looking for targets.
- Mawr 4y ago
  Think of it in context. A passer-by seeing someone smash a window will 100% call the police. Glass shattering makes quite a bit of noise as well and leaves behind a clearly broken window. Meanwhile, lockpicking has a chance of looking no different from the rightful owner using a key, especially at a distance, is relatively quiet, and leaves basically no trace.
- derefr 4y ago
  Threat model: stealing a “something you have” credential from your house and then using it before you can become aware of it to then remotely deactivate / decommission / rotate said credential.
- csa 4y ago
  > So unless your threat model is the three letter agencies entering and bugging your house The three letter agencies will have no problems gaining access to a house via picking a lock. Their ability to access without detection extends beyond that. On top of that, let’s be honest, if they want to bug someone, they will just access the mic on their phone, Alexa device, smart tv, etc.

wffurr 4y ago

Not to defend this product, but what’s the threat model for a pick resistant lock? I assume, but don’t actually know, that my biggest risk is having my rear door window smashed and the door opened from inside while I am not home. Lock picking (even raking or bumping) seems like the kind of thing that someone smart enough to figure out how to do is also smart enough not to engage in home burglary. So unless your threat model is the three letter agencies entering and bugging your house, I assume other physical security upgrades should come first.

bombcar 4y ago
I think the idea is if the lock makers won't bother protecting from simple attacks, what else have they skimped out on? It's not like the pick-resistant locks are exceptionally more expensive.
- tartoran 4y ago
  Thats what Im thinking too, it shows carelessness and unprofessionalism from the lock makers. And the high pricepoint is justified even less.
hinoki 4y ago
House insurance will cover the robbery if they break the back window to get in. It might be more difficult to file a claim if they rake the lock and don’t leave any trace beyond your missing valuables.
- mhitza 4y ago
  There's an interesting DEFCON presentation on lock picking forensics[1]. I don't know if there's any certified agency that can do a forensics report which an insurance company would accept, but if there is such a thing, most (all?) lock picking techniques leave marks. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVZzBjK1kmI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVZzBjK1kmI
- superchroma 4y ago
  this is a very important point
WalterBright 4y ago
If the lock is picked, the burglary may go unnoticed for a long time. With a broken window, you'll find out quickly.
- Simon_O_Rourke 4y ago
  What sort of hokey black hat nonsense is this?
bergenty 4y ago
You can pick a lock, steal things a lot of people wouldn’t notice for a very long time and leave like nothing happened. There would be no call to the police, no threat of window alarms etc. easiest way to get away Scott free.
- ghufran_syed 4y ago
  so this lock plus a hidden camera solves the issue?
  - bergenty 4y ago
    If you review it everyday it might. I know I would never look at the recording.
    - ayewo 4y ago
      There are surveillance products that offer motion detection as a feature. You get notified if unusual movement within your property is detected rather than you having to do the boring task of reviewing surveillance footage.
JauntyHatAngle 4y ago
If someone cases your house, they'd still pick targets based on ease and value. If they canvas your house and see a shitty, easily bumped lock, you are now an easier target and they're more likely to break in. I reckon opportunistic break ins it wouldn't make a big difference whether it's this lock or a better one though.
bagels 4y ago
Lock picking as others have pointed out is not the most common method of entry. But if you see one lock that is really hard to pick due to good engineering, they probably also spent effort to make it resist other kinds of attacks like kicking the door, etc.
superchroma 4y ago
Firstly, locks should be immune to raking. If I can enter your property with a piece of metal in 20 seconds and with no training, the lock manufacturer fucked up. That's casual and you want to deter casual opportunists. So, other than picking, there's a bunch. There's snapping the cylinder, which is common in the UK and only takes pliers, there's using a crowbar against the door to move the frame out of the way around the latch, breaking windows, and more. My threat model doesn't include pickers, for sure, but I'm particularly angry about this product because it's visually distinctive and famous, so unlike a regular lock which is basically a roll of the dice as to its quality, this quietly screams for attention and that's a problem. Thieves do canvas houses looking for targets.
Mawr 4y ago
Think of it in context. A passer-by seeing someone smash a window will 100% call the police. Glass shattering makes quite a bit of noise as well and leaves behind a clearly broken window. Meanwhile, lockpicking has a chance of looking no different from the rightful owner using a key, especially at a distance, is relatively quiet, and leaves basically no trace.
derefr 4y ago
Threat model: stealing a “something you have” credential from your house and then using it before you can become aware of it to then remotely deactivate / decommission / rotate said credential.
csa 4y ago
> So unless your threat model is the three letter agencies entering and bugging your house The three letter agencies will have no problems gaining access to a house via picking a lock. Their ability to access without detection extends beyond that. On top of that, let’s be honest, if they want to bug someone, they will just access the mic on their phone, Alexa device, smart tv, etc.