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that's why they are eco-terrorists - terrorist: a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political

by fargle 4y ago

that's why they are eco-terrorists - terrorist: a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. the problem is that the cyclist they killed is not "the polluting industry". the other problem is that even if he was CEO of Exxon, what is revenge killing OK now and not murder? if you go around blocking, harassing, destroying property, injuring and/or killing people - who are individuals that largely have no more or less ability to change things than you - then you are a terrorist, not a protester. you do not know if that traffic jam blocked an organ transplant or an ambulance. it's fine to protest and hold signs and shout and have parades and be politically active, fine you are an activist. beyond that, you're no longer the good guy underdog - you're worse than "the industry" you wish to save us from.

ok_dad 4y ago
Wow that’s a lot of hyperbole. If I called you a Nazi right now (I’m not, it’s rhetorical) it would almost be less hyperbolic than calling a huge group of protestors terrorists and worse than big oil because one guy died due to traffic.
- fargle 4y ago
  wow, that's maybe even a better example of hyperbole. Engaging in written discourse that disagrees with you is closer to being a nazi than saying protesters that break numerous laws, harass thousands of innocent people for media attention, who injured and killed (unwittingly) are eco-terrorists? Sure they didn't bomb anything, but they sure intended to illegally harm and harass innocent folks just to make their point. So yeah, I'm not convinced "big oil" is the bigger danger to democracy than this kind of, perhaps misguided, behavior in a free and civilized society. You really want minority opinion groups enforcing their strong opinions on everybody else by force and terrorist tactics? That door swings both ways big time and what happens next wouldn't be "fixing big oil" it'd be far, far, worse (China? Russia? Saudi?).
  - yellowapple 4y ago
    > So yeah, I'm not convinced "big oil" is the bigger danger to democracy than this kind of, perhaps misguided, behavior in a free and civilized society. If you're unconvinced that the very perpetrators of what's in all likelihood an existential threat to humanity as a species are a bigger danger to democracy than the very people doing what little they can to prevent that existential threat, then you are encouraged to review the abundance of evidence available. Kinda hard to have democracy when we're all dead.
    - fargle 4y ago
      in all probability, i've been reviewing all the evidence for a lot longer than most. i appreciate the sentiment, but remain unconvinced. certainly condescending, tarring other belief's with "nazi" for disagreeing, etc. isn't convincing me more. but you also miss my real point, even if you believe strongly that this must be solved: you can't fight big oil when you are a dictatorship you can't fight anything unless you have a strong majority that all agree "if we do a majority vote, we'll all be 100% behind whatever the decision is because we trust our imperfect democracy to be good enough". what we are normalizing is a society that says we'll all be behind the decision, unless it's not what our special group said was the right one otherwise we'll have a tantrum. once nobody trusts that system or anyone else in it, guess who wins and "unites" everyone? mau, stalin, putin, etc. not mr. snuggles who will save us all from houselessness and oil. divisive and illegal tactics are incredibly harmful to both society and your own cause. the group of people who watched the private plane owners inconvenienced said "ha ha - great! serves them right" already believes your argument. the rest of the people, those who you need to convince, said "yikes these are dangerous morons throwing a tantrum" and aren't ready to listen to anything they say.
      - yellowapple 4y ago
        > "if we do a majority vote, we'll all be 100% behind whatever the decision is because we trust our imperfect democracy to be good enough". That's never how majoritarian democracy has worked even in theory, let alone practice. There have always been people resisting the majority decision, specifically because the majority is not always right. And this presumes, of course, that any of the "democratic" societies of today's world are actually democracies rather than oligarchies. > tantrum That you'd write off recognition of an existential threat to humankind's existence as a "tantrum" is telling, and suggests that no, you have not been reviewing "all the evidence" with anywhere near enough depth; it's a bit rich to accuse climate activists of all people of "tantrums" in the context of rich people being prevented from enjoying a disproportionately wasteful and destructive luxury and calling in military police over it instead of, you know, taking a train or gasp flying with the poors in First Class. Point being: if you're already willing to prioritize billionaire luxuries over the planet's ability to sustain life as we know it, then no amount of civility on the part of climate activists is going to change that; you'll just find some other excuse to dismiss them while we all continue to stare down the barrel of a self-induced extinction event. > the rest of the people, those who you need to convince The ones we need to convince are the ones with the actual power over the global socioeconomic system designed to prioritize profit over all else, Earth's biosphere included. Coddling those in charge hasn't worked; the rich and powerful should be entirely unsurprised that the responses to them largely ignoring the well-being of their subjects might escalate.

by fargle 4y ago

ok_dad 4y ago

Wow that’s a lot of hyperbole. If I called you a Nazi right now (I’m not, it’s rhetorical) it would almost be less hyperbolic than calling a huge group of protestors terrorists and worse than big oil because one guy died due to traffic.

fargle 4y ago
wow, that's maybe even a better example of hyperbole. Engaging in written discourse that disagrees with you is closer to being a nazi than saying protesters that break numerous laws, harass thousands of innocent people for media attention, who injured and killed (unwittingly) are eco-terrorists? Sure they didn't bomb anything, but they sure intended to illegally harm and harass innocent folks just to make their point. So yeah, I'm not convinced "big oil" is the bigger danger to democracy than this kind of, perhaps misguided, behavior in a free and civilized society. You really want minority opinion groups enforcing their strong opinions on everybody else by force and terrorist tactics? That door swings both ways big time and what happens next wouldn't be "fixing big oil" it'd be far, far, worse (China? Russia? Saudi?).
- yellowapple 4y ago
  > So yeah, I'm not convinced "big oil" is the bigger danger to democracy than this kind of, perhaps misguided, behavior in a free and civilized society. If you're unconvinced that the very perpetrators of what's in all likelihood an existential threat to humanity as a species are a bigger danger to democracy than the very people doing what little they can to prevent that existential threat, then you are encouraged to review the abundance of evidence available. Kinda hard to have democracy when we're all dead.
  - fargle 4y ago
    in all probability, i've been reviewing all the evidence for a lot longer than most. i appreciate the sentiment, but remain unconvinced. certainly condescending, tarring other belief's with "nazi" for disagreeing, etc. isn't convincing me more. but you also miss my real point, even if you believe strongly that this must be solved: you can't fight big oil when you are a dictatorship you can't fight anything unless you have a strong majority that all agree "if we do a majority vote, we'll all be 100% behind whatever the decision is because we trust our imperfect democracy to be good enough". what we are normalizing is a society that says we'll all be behind the decision, unless it's not what our special group said was the right one otherwise we'll have a tantrum. once nobody trusts that system or anyone else in it, guess who wins and "unites" everyone? mau, stalin, putin, etc. not mr. snuggles who will save us all from houselessness and oil. divisive and illegal tactics are incredibly harmful to both society and your own cause. the group of people who watched the private plane owners inconvenienced said "ha ha - great! serves them right" already believes your argument. the rest of the people, those who you need to convince, said "yikes these are dangerous morons throwing a tantrum" and aren't ready to listen to anything they say.
    - yellowapple 4y ago
      > "if we do a majority vote, we'll all be 100% behind whatever the decision is because we trust our imperfect democracy to be good enough". That's never how majoritarian democracy has worked even in theory, let alone practice. There have always been people resisting the majority decision, specifically because the majority is not always right. And this presumes, of course, that any of the "democratic" societies of today's world are actually democracies rather than oligarchies. > tantrum That you'd write off recognition of an existential threat to humankind's existence as a "tantrum" is telling, and suggests that no, you have not been reviewing "all the evidence" with anywhere near enough depth; it's a bit rich to accuse climate activists of all people of "tantrums" in the context of rich people being prevented from enjoying a disproportionately wasteful and destructive luxury and calling in military police over it instead of, you know, taking a train or gasp flying with the poors in First Class. Point being: if you're already willing to prioritize billionaire luxuries over the planet's ability to sustain life as we know it, then no amount of civility on the part of climate activists is going to change that; you'll just find some other excuse to dismiss them while we all continue to stare down the barrel of a self-induced extinction event. > the rest of the people, those who you need to convince The ones we need to convince are the ones with the actual power over the global socioeconomic system designed to prioritize profit over all else, Earth's biosphere included. Coddling those in charge hasn't worked; the rich and powerful should be entirely unsurprised that the responses to them largely ignoring the well-being of their subjects might escalate.