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> Programmers are paid surprisingly well given how much work it is to become one This is really only true in parts of the US and within specific domains of pro

by kodah 4y ago

> Programmers are paid surprisingly well given how much work it is to become one This is really only true in parts of the US and within specific domains of programming. Parts of the US and domains that Jeff has continually worked in. Anecdotally, when I was working as a programmer in Dallas my take home wasn't near what it is in the Valley, but I do the exact same thing out here and make 3-4x what I did there. There's some class-bias going on, in that companies in the Valley somehow justify subsidizing home prices with salary and stock despite Valley programmers being no better than any other programmer. Some other part of that has to do with companies inability to embrace remote work and satellite offices being expensive to build and expensive to coordinate work. There's also some unfairness that has to do with intentionally putting lots of programmers in one spot and having a lower order of them that can accomplish the hard things. That's to say, not all programming jobs are overpaid, but if you got paid $600k+ (I know, an arbitrary number), then yeah, you probably shouldn't plan for the skies to be so sunny forever with the particular domain that you got that pay in. > Specifically, I'd recommend living on a small portion of your income and saving a multiple of your living expenses. This I think is just very good general life advice. Never plan for eternal sunny skies.

ip26 4y ago
It makes the most sense to me as multiple distinct labor markets. It’s easy to find skilled programmers in the Silicon Valley labor market, so that’s where a lot of hiring happens even if the prices are higher. Equally talented programmers can be found in other markets, but it’s more difficult to locate them. Part of why it persists is because the gravitational pull of Silicon Valley became self sustaining. Programmers move to that market because that is where the hiring happens. The hiring happens there because all the programmers move there. I don’t live there, but that’s how I make sense of it all. It’s the same reason I shop at Target instead of Amazon despite higher prices.
maximus-decimus 4y ago
> Specifically, I'd recommend living on a small portion of your income and saving a multiple of your living expenses. General life advice? This implies everybody should save at least 66.6% of their post-tax salary.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Child support for a single child alone, which is what society thinks a single child needs to live, is about 30% of salary post tax. So you'd be spending 2-3% of your salary on yourself if you had even a single child. Sounds pretty rough.
  - maximus-decimus 4y ago
    It's pretty weird that "what a child needs to live" is determined as a function of the parent's income. As if kids of rich people needed more money can kids of poor people to survive.
- aksss 4y ago
  The idea is to have, e.g. three to six months of living expenses held in reserve cash. Once you’ve built the emergency fund, spend all you want. Ladder your emergency fund into I-bonds or something if worried about it eroding from inflation. It’s very solid general life advice. Prepare.
  - borski 4y ago
    Well, and save for retirement.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
slg 4y ago
> This is really only true in parts of the US and within specific domains of programming. Parts of the US and domains that Jeff has continually worked in. Anecdotally, when I was working as a programmer in Dallas my take home wasn't near what it is in the Valley, but I do the exact same thing out here and make 3-4x what I did there. But isn’t it only a matter of time until this changes due to the increase in remote work? Either high paying markets will decrease pay or everywhere else will have to raise it. It is incredibly weird to look for a job and have the option to work remotely for a San Fransisco based tech company for literally twice the salary I have seen offered locally for essentially the same work.
- WWLink 4y ago
  I doubt it. Getting a job at those Bay Area companies is still harder. Like it's widely accepted you'll be studying leetcode for a while and know your data structures & algorithms like the back of your hand and be able to solve any leetcode problem impromptu within 30 minutes on a whiteboard. It costs a lot more to run a company headquarters in the bay area than most other places. That alone is a bit of a flex. It's like how NYC banking firms pay better than banking firms elsewhere. Being able to have a HQ in an expensive city is a flex and you have higher standards because of it.
thewebcount 4y ago
> There's some class-bias going on, in that companies in the Valley somehow justify subsidizing home prices with salary and stock despite Valley programmers being no better than any other programmer. This isn’t true. My first job out of college was working for an old tech company that had decades of experience writing decent software. The vast majority of programmers there were mediocre at best. There were a few stars that were pulling most of the weight of the teams I knew about. The original programmers that wrote the older software had long since moved on. At my job now, working for a similarly sized company whose headquarters are in the Valley, the average programmer that I work with is quite good. They are much better than programmers I’ve worked with in other parts of the country over the last several decades. The few exceptions now also work at the company I’m at or our competitors. This idea that all programmers are equally good is nonsense. Can you find good programmers outside of Silicon Valley? Yes, it’s possible, but it’s much harder than in the Valley. Talent flocks there.
- H8crilA 4y ago
  Yup, and it's probably convex - something like 1 + 1 + 3 = 5, but 3 + 3 + 3 > 12. That would also explain concentration of tech in a single area, or a few areas of the world.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  Because it's about the type of company rather than the size of the company. A tech-oriented company is going to avoid mediocre developers, a non tech-oriented company just wants to get something delivered regardless of quality.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kodah 4y ago
  I don't think what you're saying is true. I worked with some really skilled programmers where I'm from. I've never seen a skill disparity between where I'm from and the Valley. There is a massive, unexplainable pay disparity though.

by kodah 4y ago

ip26 4y ago

It makes the most sense to me as multiple distinct labor markets. It’s easy to find skilled programmers in the Silicon Valley labor market, so that’s where a lot of hiring happens even if the prices are higher. Equally talented programmers can be found in other markets, but it’s more difficult to locate them. Part of why it persists is because the gravitational pull of Silicon Valley became self sustaining. Programmers move to that market because that is where the hiring happens. The hiring happens there because all the programmers move there. I don’t live there, but that’s how I make sense of it all. It’s the same reason I shop at Target instead of Amazon despite higher prices.

maximus-decimus 4y ago

> Specifically, I'd recommend living on a small portion of your income and saving a multiple of your living expenses. General life advice? This implies everybody should save at least 66.6% of their post-tax salary.

notch656a 4y ago
Child support for a single child alone, which is what society thinks a single child needs to live, is about 30% of salary post tax. So you'd be spending 2-3% of your salary on yourself if you had even a single child. Sounds pretty rough.
- maximus-decimus 4y ago
  It's pretty weird that "what a child needs to live" is determined as a function of the parent's income. As if kids of rich people needed more money can kids of poor people to survive.
aksss 4y ago
The idea is to have, e.g. three to six months of living expenses held in reserve cash. Once you’ve built the emergency fund, spend all you want. Ladder your emergency fund into I-bonds or something if worried about it eroding from inflation. It’s very solid general life advice. Prepare.
- borski 4y ago
  Well, and save for retirement.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

slg 4y ago

> This is really only true in parts of the US and within specific domains of programming. Parts of the US and domains that Jeff has continually worked in. Anecdotally, when I was working as a programmer in Dallas my take home wasn't near what it is in the Valley, but I do the exact same thing out here and make 3-4x what I did there. But isn’t it only a matter of time until this changes due to the increase in remote work? Either high paying markets will decrease pay or everywhere else will have to raise it. It is incredibly weird to look for a job and have the option to work remotely for a San Fransisco based tech company for literally twice the salary I have seen offered locally for essentially the same work.

WWLink 4y ago
I doubt it. Getting a job at those Bay Area companies is still harder. Like it's widely accepted you'll be studying leetcode for a while and know your data structures & algorithms like the back of your hand and be able to solve any leetcode problem impromptu within 30 minutes on a whiteboard. It costs a lot more to run a company headquarters in the bay area than most other places. That alone is a bit of a flex. It's like how NYC banking firms pay better than banking firms elsewhere. Being able to have a HQ in an expensive city is a flex and you have higher standards because of it.

thewebcount 4y ago

> There's some class-bias going on, in that companies in the Valley somehow justify subsidizing home prices with salary and stock despite Valley programmers being no better than any other programmer. This isn’t true. My first job out of college was working for an old tech company that had decades of experience writing decent software. The vast majority of programmers there were mediocre at best. There were a few stars that were pulling most of the weight of the teams I knew about. The original programmers that wrote the older software had long since moved on. At my job now, working for a similarly sized company whose headquarters are in the Valley, the average programmer that I work with is quite good. They are much better than programmers I’ve worked with in other parts of the country over the last several decades. The few exceptions now also work at the company I’m at or our competitors. This idea that all programmers are equally good is nonsense. Can you find good programmers outside of Silicon Valley? Yes, it’s possible, but it’s much harder than in the Valley. Talent flocks there.

H8crilA 4y ago
Yup, and it's probably convex - something like 1 + 1 + 3 = 5, but 3 + 3 + 3 > 12. That would also explain concentration of tech in a single area, or a few areas of the world.
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
Because it's about the type of company rather than the size of the company. A tech-oriented company is going to avoid mediocre developers, a non tech-oriented company just wants to get something delivered regardless of quality.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kodah 4y ago
I don't think what you're saying is true. I worked with some really skilled programmers where I'm from. I've never seen a skill disparity between where I'm from and the Valley. There is a massive, unexplainable pay disparity though.