3 ms·

What’s holding us back on exo skeletons anyway? The idea shave been around for decades? I’d guess power sources? Small enough actuators? Or is it just really

What’s holding us back on exo skeletons anyway? The idea shave been around for decades? I’d guess power sources? Small enough actuators? Or is it just really difficult for a human to control?

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
Power to weight ratios?
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  ^ This, particularly when viewed in terms of the square-cube law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square%E2%80%93cube_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square%E2%80%93cube_law
sandworm101 4y ago
Lack of any real market for them. In any industrial application, a human driving a forklift is way more efficient than someone given superman strength via an exosuit. There are some niche military applications such as rapidly loading a truck by hand, piling sandbags and such. Replacement or supplementing the function of damaged limbs is another niche, but that isn't much of a market. Everyone wants one but nobody expects to jog to work in one, as opposed to any number of other vehicle options. I read once about a Japanese exosuit powered by compressed air. The market they were targeting was elder care. Using compressed air meant you could assist/lift elderly people around water without worry.
- ShredKazoo 4y ago
  How about current wheelchair users who would like to go hiking?
  - datameta 4y ago
    In fact there are a number of invisible disabilities that take away a person's ability to hike. I was inspired to start 3D-printing with the goal of developing a lower body exoskeleton using "exotic" filaments that would make the suit less bulky, more rugged, and longer lasting than the admittedly amazing prototypes I've seen made of PLA.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    Most wheelchair users don't have the means to pay several hundred grand for such a system, nor the expensive daily maintenance it entails. Maybe when it's mass produced in the millions like cars it will be more affordable.
  - ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
    Exoskeleton is an umbrella term that covers a wide variety of use-cases. For strain-relief and augmented-strength you've got the fairly simple and thin military rigs that work mechanically with a bunch of springs, sometimes a small backpack-like battery. For paraplegic wheelchair users, for example, you need an exoskeleton that fully replaces the functions of the legs: structure, balance, movement. That's much more complicated and much bigger. And the tech isn't there for consumer use, we're just starting to get there with Atlas. Beyond that you've got many wheelchair-binding disabilities that present unique challenges and require functionalities that are somewhere in between the two exos described above. A lot of wheelchair users who retain their ability to move their legs simply use braces to enhance their structural integrity and crutches for balance, but couldn't use a powered exoskeleton due to the injuries it might cause from sudden movements or ranges of motion that aren't adapted to their limitations.
  - prawn 4y ago
    My guess is that current trails that aren't already accessible would struggle to support a machine of that size (secure cabin and then width of legs/etc), and there wouldn't be the demand for immediate upgrade of wilder trails. I've hiked a lot and can't remember the last time I saw a wheelchair on an accessible trail; prams are more common. National parks have transitioned from trying to attract people to the outdoors to now trying to minimise their impact on the environment, so I assume they'd be reluctant to upgrade non-accessible trails like that. Smaller parks might have smaller budgets. Then add risks on steep or exposed trails. My father in law is in a wheelchair (MS) and bumps/scraps doorways in our house. Move that to a trail on a slope and it would be very dangerous.
    - ShredKazoo 4y ago
      I'm picturing a seat supported by 4 robotic legs and controlled by a handheld joystick. The seat could be self-balancing, self-stabilizing for a smooth ride, and have embedded cameras, LIDAR, etc. to prevent collisions. It basically walks itself, you just nudge the joystick to tell it which direction to walk in and it finds a smart path in that direction. Probably beyond the reach of current technology, and impractically expensive for the time being. But in the long run, I can imagine that the cost of giving every wheelchair user something like this might be cheaper than the cost of making buildings accessible. Most relevant for newly built cities I guess. Basically run the numbers on the cost of providing exoskeletons vs the cost of making everything ramp-accessible and providing accessible transport. The exoskeleton could sprint over to your house when you summoned it ;-) Possible disadvantage: shortage of exoskeletons during city festivals when everyone wants to go out and there are lots of out-of-town visitors?
  - jcpst 4y ago
    We have state parks with these available: https://trackmastermobility.com/hunting-wheelchair/ https://trackmastermobility.com/hunting-wheelchair/
- Loquebantur 4y ago
  Construction seems a good fit? Mining maybe, too.
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    I think dexterity would be a problem for construction. Or if you re-engineer the building to accommodate machines, then you probably want more automation than a human in a mech suit. Mining probably is all set with much larger machines, though I know nothing about mining.
orbital-decay 4y ago
In any industry, designing things for specialized tools (cranes, forklifts) is typically much easier than designing a universal tool to handle everything. (exoskeletons). They have some niche uses like prolonged work with the arms raised, though. In military, passive exoskeletons are more useful than powered ones. They are just fancy springs to rebalance and lighten the load on soldiers. For medical purposes, exoskeletons are used for thousands of years. They are probably not what you'd call an exoskeleton, though. A basic example is a splint.
njharman 4y ago
Mainly what does having an expensive, fragile human who requires tons of support (air, water, breaks) and legal liability & regulation offer over a remote or now/soon autonomous machine? Answer, not enough to be profitable.
- rpastuszak 4y ago
  I think that's a very good point. I agree that there's not much market for it, but also that humans are completely redundant here. Any huge mech would be easier to operate as a drone than a huge human Tupperware.
modeless 4y ago
You need a strong rigid cage to protect the operator, with comfortable seating and controls, a large and heavy power source, and something more practical than legs for movement. Put all that together, and you essentially have an excavator. Excavators can do amazing things in the hands of a skilled operator. They have interchangeable tools and they come in a wide range of sizes. Maybe the small ones feel more like exoskeletons than the big ones. Some even have the operator in a standing position. The smallest Bobcat (technically a "loader" instead of an "excavator") is little more than a cage on wheels with one big arm: https://www.bobcat.com/na/en/equipment/loaders/skid-steer-loaders/s70 https://www.bobcat.com/na/en/equipment/loaders/skid-steer-lo... I guess what you're really missing to make this feel like a scifi exoskeleton is two arms, more degrees of freedom per arm, a much more capable "hand", way more speed in all of the actuators, and a more 1:1 control style with some kind of touch sensitivity/force feedback. All of that would make these things way more expensive, complex, and most importantly, fragile. Durability and ease of maintenance is a huge consideration for practical work. Last month I watched a guy in one of these accidentally smash his jackhammer attachment on a low overhang and sever the hydraulic hoses, spraying hydraulic fluid everywhere. I can only imagine that this kind of thing happens all the time. If that was a 20 DOF robot hand with touch sensors instead of a 1 DOF dumb jackhammer attachment, it could easily have been damaged beyond repair.

What’s holding us back on exo skeletons anyway? The idea shave been around for decades? I’d guess power sources? Small enough actuators? Or is it just really difficult for a human to control?

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago

Power to weight ratios?

dane-pgp 4y ago
^ This, particularly when viewed in terms of the square-cube law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square%E2%80%93cube_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square%E2%80%93cube_law

sandworm101 4y ago

Lack of any real market for them. In any industrial application, a human driving a forklift is way more efficient than someone given superman strength via an exosuit. There are some niche military applications such as rapidly loading a truck by hand, piling sandbags and such. Replacement or supplementing the function of damaged limbs is another niche, but that isn't much of a market. Everyone wants one but nobody expects to jog to work in one, as opposed to any number of other vehicle options. I read once about a Japanese exosuit powered by compressed air. The market they were targeting was elder care. Using compressed air meant you could assist/lift elderly people around water without worry.

ShredKazoo 4y ago
How about current wheelchair users who would like to go hiking?
- datameta 4y ago
  In fact there are a number of invisible disabilities that take away a person's ability to hike. I was inspired to start 3D-printing with the goal of developing a lower body exoskeleton using "exotic" filaments that would make the suit less bulky, more rugged, and longer lasting than the admittedly amazing prototypes I've seen made of PLA.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  Most wheelchair users don't have the means to pay several hundred grand for such a system, nor the expensive daily maintenance it entails. Maybe when it's mass produced in the millions like cars it will be more affordable.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
  Exoskeleton is an umbrella term that covers a wide variety of use-cases. For strain-relief and augmented-strength you've got the fairly simple and thin military rigs that work mechanically with a bunch of springs, sometimes a small backpack-like battery. For paraplegic wheelchair users, for example, you need an exoskeleton that fully replaces the functions of the legs: structure, balance, movement. That's much more complicated and much bigger. And the tech isn't there for consumer use, we're just starting to get there with Atlas. Beyond that you've got many wheelchair-binding disabilities that present unique challenges and require functionalities that are somewhere in between the two exos described above. A lot of wheelchair users who retain their ability to move their legs simply use braces to enhance their structural integrity and crutches for balance, but couldn't use a powered exoskeleton due to the injuries it might cause from sudden movements or ranges of motion that aren't adapted to their limitations.
- prawn 4y ago
  My guess is that current trails that aren't already accessible would struggle to support a machine of that size (secure cabin and then width of legs/etc), and there wouldn't be the demand for immediate upgrade of wilder trails. I've hiked a lot and can't remember the last time I saw a wheelchair on an accessible trail; prams are more common. National parks have transitioned from trying to attract people to the outdoors to now trying to minimise their impact on the environment, so I assume they'd be reluctant to upgrade non-accessible trails like that. Smaller parks might have smaller budgets. Then add risks on steep or exposed trails. My father in law is in a wheelchair (MS) and bumps/scraps doorways in our house. Move that to a trail on a slope and it would be very dangerous.
  - ShredKazoo 4y ago
    I'm picturing a seat supported by 4 robotic legs and controlled by a handheld joystick. The seat could be self-balancing, self-stabilizing for a smooth ride, and have embedded cameras, LIDAR, etc. to prevent collisions. It basically walks itself, you just nudge the joystick to tell it which direction to walk in and it finds a smart path in that direction. Probably beyond the reach of current technology, and impractically expensive for the time being. But in the long run, I can imagine that the cost of giving every wheelchair user something like this might be cheaper than the cost of making buildings accessible. Most relevant for newly built cities I guess. Basically run the numbers on the cost of providing exoskeletons vs the cost of making everything ramp-accessible and providing accessible transport. The exoskeleton could sprint over to your house when you summoned it ;-) Possible disadvantage: shortage of exoskeletons during city festivals when everyone wants to go out and there are lots of out-of-town visitors?
- jcpst 4y ago
  We have state parks with these available: https://trackmastermobility.com/hunting-wheelchair/ https://trackmastermobility.com/hunting-wheelchair/
Loquebantur 4y ago
Construction seems a good fit? Mining maybe, too.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  I think dexterity would be a problem for construction. Or if you re-engineer the building to accommodate machines, then you probably want more automation than a human in a mech suit. Mining probably is all set with much larger machines, though I know nothing about mining.

orbital-decay 4y ago

In any industry, designing things for specialized tools (cranes, forklifts) is typically much easier than designing a universal tool to handle everything. (exoskeletons). They have some niche uses like prolonged work with the arms raised, though. In military, passive exoskeletons are more useful than powered ones. They are just fancy springs to rebalance and lighten the load on soldiers. For medical purposes, exoskeletons are used for thousands of years. They are probably not what you'd call an exoskeleton, though. A basic example is a splint.

njharman 4y ago

Mainly what does having an expensive, fragile human who requires tons of support (air, water, breaks) and legal liability & regulation offer over a remote or now/soon autonomous machine? Answer, not enough to be profitable.

rpastuszak 4y ago
I think that's a very good point. I agree that there's not much market for it, but also that humans are completely redundant here. Any huge mech would be easier to operate as a drone than a huge human Tupperware.

modeless 4y ago

You need a strong rigid cage to protect the operator, with comfortable seating and controls, a large and heavy power source, and something more practical than legs for movement. Put all that together, and you essentially have an excavator. Excavators can do amazing things in the hands of a skilled operator. They have interchangeable tools and they come in a wide range of sizes. Maybe the small ones feel more like exoskeletons than the big ones. Some even have the operator in a standing position. The smallest Bobcat (technically a "loader" instead of an "excavator") is little more than a cage on wheels with one big arm: https://www.bobcat.com/na/en/equipment/loaders/skid-steer-loaders/s70 https://www.bobcat.com/na/en/equipment/loaders/skid-steer-lo... I guess what you're really missing to make this feel like a scifi exoskeleton is two arms, more degrees of freedom per arm, a much more capable "hand", way more speed in all of the actuators, and a more 1:1 control style with some kind of touch sensitivity/force feedback. All of that would make these things way more expensive, complex, and most importantly, fragile. Durability and ease of maintenance is a huge consideration for practical work. Last month I watched a guy in one of these accidentally smash his jackhammer attachment on a low overhang and sever the hydraulic hoses, spraying hydraulic fluid everywhere. I can only imagine that this kind of thing happens all the time. If that was a 20 DOF robot hand with touch sensors instead of a 1 DOF dumb jackhammer attachment, it could easily have been damaged beyond repair.