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I was a mod, this tool is the worst from a mod's perspective. In a sub with 100k-200k people, I would spend all my time telling users why I took action. Instead

by pluc 4y ago

I was a mod, this tool is the worst from a mod's perspective. In a sub with 100k-200k people, I would spend all my time telling users why I took action. Instead I take action when content breaks rules, and it's your responsibility to abide by the rules to not have your content deleted. This tool complicates the life of people who give their time for free, and asks them to provide even more time solely to satisfy user curiosity. I don't like it.

loceng 4y ago
So the #2 problem is that you're not getting paid. And the #1 problem is actually much worse since "you" aren't paid - in that there is a strong likelihood that "you": 1) are a paid shill to suppress specific content by either domestic or foreign bad actors (government or industrial complex trying to control/suppress narratives), and/or 2) "you" have an ideological bent - and are "passionate" (and biased) on certain issues and why you're volunteering your time.
- pluc 4y ago
  Totally agree. There are great mods then there are people with an agenda. The reputation mods get on reddit is always one of selfish, controlling power-tripping assholes, but for the large majority that's way off. But there's also cases where it's completely justified.
  - aliqot 4y ago
    They do it for free...
    - loceng 4y ago
      For "free"...
      - rhaksw 4y ago
        You're right, and that's an important point. The message that "they do it for free" may be propaganda itself. We don't know that to be true, so it's wrong to assert that any given mod either is not or is being paid, short of evidence indicating the latter. I don't know how you would prove the former, particularly given the existence of digital coins. Bitcoin seems perfect for this along with a host of other things for which secret payment might be useful. Come to think of it, that may make a pretty good case for making moderation transparent. You can't ever be sure someone isn't being paid to influence the conversation, and therefore users deserve to be able to review what gets removed.
        aliqot 4y ago
        > You can't ever be sure someone isn't being paid to influence the conversation, and therefore users deserve to be able to review what gets removed. describes HN.
Pigalowda 4y ago
Did you ever have a feeling of being Tom Sawyered into doing free work for Reddit? Moderation may provide some feeling of authority and control which i suppose could be pay-off enough but in the end its just free work. I suppose if I created my own little subreddit and curated its contents that would be different but moderating tens of thousands of users must be just a crappy chore. For you was it a slow transition from fun curation to work like chore as the subscribers grew?
- pluc 4y ago
  Never, because the subject matter in the sub I moderated was very local (a city sub). It never felt we were enforcing reddit's rules but our own, and so we never felt like we worked for Reddit but for our community. And that's really where they get ya, cause aside from /r/reddit.com, everything has this "this is your space" feeling. That's becoming less and less true with all the shit they're pushing to monetize users/content though
  - Firmwarrior 4y ago
    Yeah, it's "yours" until you try to siphon people of the site, advertise something the admins don't like, or you fail to push the politics of the day from a random part of the USA where Reddit is headquartered
wl 4y ago
None of my removed comments on reddit have ever broken any site or sidebar rules. When I've used this tool to ask mods for clarification about removed comments, mods have just made stuff up (example: saying I was engaging in namecalling when I didn't even refer to another person at all... the real reason is the mod disagreed with the position I was advocating for) and sometimes issued bans. As a user, revealing this moderator abuse is more important than helping moderators abuse their powers without anybody noticing.
- pixl97 4y ago
  While this is commonly the case, also look at another effect occurring here, especially in larger or more controversial subs. That is, someone was reporting large number of your particular posts. If you go to a moderation queue and there are 1000 backlogged moderation tasks, even at a second each, you've still taken 15 minutes of that moderators life. Chances are they shortcut and lean to banning before reading because huge parts of the moderation queue are objective trash content.
mrshadowgoose 4y ago
I'm so sorry that this tool is making you more accountable for your actions. It's truly a shame that people in positions of authority over others are held to a higher standard of scrutiny. We should just be blindly trusting them.
- pluc 4y ago
  Your alternative that time is spent explaining in detail every action taken isn't realistic, doesn't scale and doesn't start to consider the fact that it's volunteer work. Especially when the reasons for 100% of the actions that are taken should be documented and publicly available (and we're not talking about mod abuse here, but actual moderation). But sure, it's a great idea; go ahead and enforce it at scale now. Reddit couldn't, Twitter can't, Facebook sucks at it.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - mrshadowgoose 4y ago
    You've got lots of other alternatives: 1) You don't have to explain moderation decisions if you don't want to. This will of course amplify the volume of complaints. 2) You can step down. This "I'm a noble volunteer and should therefore be immune to criticism" attitude doesn't tend to be popular amongst those being moderated. Nobody is forcing you to do this. You may not be getting paid, but are presumably getting some sort of emotional benefit out of doing this job. 3) You can make references to anti-censorship tools a bannable offence, like some of the shittier subreddits do. Fundamentally, you are getting mad at users making and comparing notes.
rhaksw 4y ago
> I was a mod, this tool is the worst from a mod's perspective. In a sub with 100k-200k people, I would spend all my time telling users why I took action. Instead I take action when content breaks rules, and it's your responsibility to abide by the rules to not have your content deleted. This tool complicates the life of people who give their time for free, and asks them to provide even more time solely to satisfy user curiosity. I don't like it. Upvote because this is an important viewpoint being shared that is in the minority in this thread. I made this tool to challenge the systems that enable the secret removal of content. You wouldn't need to spend an extra second moderating if the system simply indicated to authors that their comments were removed. The burden placed upon you comes from today's social media sites, not Reveddit. I didn't make the tool to give mods a hard time. I made it so people, both mods and users, can help themselves into better environments. "Better" means spaces where people might have to have difficult conversations that challenge their existing world views, and where they need to sharpen their arguments to get ready for real world conversations when they meet people with whom they disagree.
laputan_machine 4y ago
Oh no. Being held accountable when you are in a position of power. The travesty.
- pluc 4y ago
  You try moderating hundreds of thousands of users and caring about every little unique snowflake with an attitude like yours. See which comes first: your burn out or your change of attitude
  - laputan_machine 4y ago
    > ...with an attitude like yours. What attitude? I'm giving a slight jab at your complaints. You're a volunteer and you have power over others, of course you should be scrutinised! That's the _correct_ attitude to have. I'm not a fan of pockets of humanity where autocratic-leaning individuals want to exercise their power over others, but if we do, then you should be held absolutely accountable. I don't need that level of power over other people to feel fulfilled in life, so I don't do it.
    - pluc 4y ago
      Nobody moderates a community for free for to obtain fulfillment by having power over other users. You need to talk with people in position of power more. They do get users like you, who will tug at everything they can find even the most outlandish of conspiracy theories, to feel like they're not powerless and have to abide by common law rules.

by pluc 4y ago

loceng 4y ago

So the #2 problem is that you're not getting paid. And the #1 problem is actually much worse since "you" aren't paid - in that there is a strong likelihood that "you": 1) are a paid shill to suppress specific content by either domestic or foreign bad actors (government or industrial complex trying to control/suppress narratives), and/or 2) "you" have an ideological bent - and are "passionate" (and biased) on certain issues and why you're volunteering your time.

pluc 4y ago
Totally agree. There are great mods then there are people with an agenda. The reputation mods get on reddit is always one of selfish, controlling power-tripping assholes, but for the large majority that's way off. But there's also cases where it's completely justified.
- aliqot 4y ago
  They do it for free...
  - loceng 4y ago
    For "free"...
    - rhaksw 4y ago
      You're right, and that's an important point. The message that "they do it for free" may be propaganda itself. We don't know that to be true, so it's wrong to assert that any given mod either is not or is being paid, short of evidence indicating the latter. I don't know how you would prove the former, particularly given the existence of digital coins. Bitcoin seems perfect for this along with a host of other things for which secret payment might be useful. Come to think of it, that may make a pretty good case for making moderation transparent. You can't ever be sure someone isn't being paid to influence the conversation, and therefore users deserve to be able to review what gets removed.
      - aliqot 4y ago
        > You can't ever be sure someone isn't being paid to influence the conversation, and therefore users deserve to be able to review what gets removed. describes HN.

Pigalowda 4y ago

Did you ever have a feeling of being Tom Sawyered into doing free work for Reddit? Moderation may provide some feeling of authority and control which i suppose could be pay-off enough but in the end its just free work. I suppose if I created my own little subreddit and curated its contents that would be different but moderating tens of thousands of users must be just a crappy chore. For you was it a slow transition from fun curation to work like chore as the subscribers grew?

pluc 4y ago
Never, because the subject matter in the sub I moderated was very local (a city sub). It never felt we were enforcing reddit's rules but our own, and so we never felt like we worked for Reddit but for our community. And that's really where they get ya, cause aside from /r/reddit.com, everything has this "this is your space" feeling. That's becoming less and less true with all the shit they're pushing to monetize users/content though
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  Yeah, it's "yours" until you try to siphon people of the site, advertise something the admins don't like, or you fail to push the politics of the day from a random part of the USA where Reddit is headquartered

wl 4y ago

None of my removed comments on reddit have ever broken any site or sidebar rules. When I've used this tool to ask mods for clarification about removed comments, mods have just made stuff up (example: saying I was engaging in namecalling when I didn't even refer to another person at all... the real reason is the mod disagreed with the position I was advocating for) and sometimes issued bans. As a user, revealing this moderator abuse is more important than helping moderators abuse their powers without anybody noticing.

pixl97 4y ago
While this is commonly the case, also look at another effect occurring here, especially in larger or more controversial subs. That is, someone was reporting large number of your particular posts. If you go to a moderation queue and there are 1000 backlogged moderation tasks, even at a second each, you've still taken 15 minutes of that moderators life. Chances are they shortcut and lean to banning before reading because huge parts of the moderation queue are objective trash content.

mrshadowgoose 4y ago

I'm so sorry that this tool is making you more accountable for your actions. It's truly a shame that people in positions of authority over others are held to a higher standard of scrutiny. We should just be blindly trusting them.

pluc 4y ago
Your alternative that time is spent explaining in detail every action taken isn't realistic, doesn't scale and doesn't start to consider the fact that it's volunteer work. Especially when the reasons for 100% of the actions that are taken should be documented and publicly available (and we're not talking about mod abuse here, but actual moderation). But sure, it's a great idea; go ahead and enforce it at scale now. Reddit couldn't, Twitter can't, Facebook sucks at it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mrshadowgoose 4y ago
  You've got lots of other alternatives: 1) You don't have to explain moderation decisions if you don't want to. This will of course amplify the volume of complaints. 2) You can step down. This "I'm a noble volunteer and should therefore be immune to criticism" attitude doesn't tend to be popular amongst those being moderated. Nobody is forcing you to do this. You may not be getting paid, but are presumably getting some sort of emotional benefit out of doing this job. 3) You can make references to anti-censorship tools a bannable offence, like some of the shittier subreddits do. Fundamentally, you are getting mad at users making and comparing notes.

rhaksw 4y ago

> I was a mod, this tool is the worst from a mod's perspective. In a sub with 100k-200k people, I would spend all my time telling users why I took action. Instead I take action when content breaks rules, and it's your responsibility to abide by the rules to not have your content deleted. This tool complicates the life of people who give their time for free, and asks them to provide even more time solely to satisfy user curiosity. I don't like it. Upvote because this is an important viewpoint being shared that is in the minority in this thread. I made this tool to challenge the systems that enable the secret removal of content. You wouldn't need to spend an extra second moderating if the system simply indicated to authors that their comments were removed. The burden placed upon you comes from today's social media sites, not Reveddit. I didn't make the tool to give mods a hard time. I made it so people, both mods and users, can help themselves into better environments. "Better" means spaces where people might have to have difficult conversations that challenge their existing world views, and where they need to sharpen their arguments to get ready for real world conversations when they meet people with whom they disagree.

laputan_machine 4y ago

Oh no. Being held accountable when you are in a position of power. The travesty.

pluc 4y ago
You try moderating hundreds of thousands of users and caring about every little unique snowflake with an attitude like yours. See which comes first: your burn out or your change of attitude
- laputan_machine 4y ago
  > ...with an attitude like yours. What attitude? I'm giving a slight jab at your complaints. You're a volunteer and you have power over others, of course you should be scrutinised! That's the _correct_ attitude to have. I'm not a fan of pockets of humanity where autocratic-leaning individuals want to exercise their power over others, but if we do, then you should be held absolutely accountable. I don't need that level of power over other people to feel fulfilled in life, so I don't do it.
  - pluc 4y ago
    Nobody moderates a community for free for to obtain fulfillment by having power over other users. You need to talk with people in position of power more. They do get users like you, who will tug at everything they can find even the most outlandish of conspiracy theories, to feel like they're not powerless and have to abide by common law rules.