4 ms·

Manpads really aren't all that effective against helicopters. I don't think anything has fundamentally changed in the past 40ish years in regards to the ubiquit

by Sakos 4y ago

Manpads really aren't all that effective against helicopters. I don't think anything has fundamentally changed in the past 40ish years in regards to the ubiquitousness of manpads or how they work. Helicopters are comparatively cheap, effective, flexible and difficult to shoot down without proper AA, but that's what combined arms is for, or a lot of luck. Only about 40 helicopters were lost to hostile fire in Iraq from 2004-2009. I'd say the flexibility is the main reason why you can't get rid of helicopters in modern armies. There are just things that planes can't do without protected airspace or a controlled airfield.

T-zex 4y ago
- Sakos 4y ago
  This is HN. Can we not use derogatory terms here?
  - tokamak 4y ago
    That's what he did. I can think of much worse.
  - aliswe 4y ago
    I thought he meant orcas, but I'm only basing this off CnC. Orcs as the fantasy creature? Thats just silly.
- baxtr 4y ago
  I am very much pro Ukraine and all that. But please let’s keep having respect for other humans. No matter how much we hate them. That’s also part of our value system we’re defending over there.
  - causi 4y ago
    "Orcs" is an incredibly gentle term, but fair enough, they're not literally orcs. "The Russian invaders who rape infants and then throw them in mass graves with their parents failed to establish air superiority partly due to the effectiveness of the manpads."
    - pxmpxm 4y ago
      Oooh, do America/Iraq next
      - causi 4y ago
        That is also awful, and the way American leadership covered for those monsters nauseates me.
      - KingOfCoders 4y ago
        Look up Phoenix program for wild things. Not to take any Iraqi victims lightly, but Vietnam had much more atrocities.
        pxmpxm 4y ago
        I think you're collectively missing my point; the two parents in this thread are phenomenal example of https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/355/607/670 https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/355/607/670 Related, but it's pretty eye opening to see left-leaning people being marketed and fully sold a war. I can only surmise this latest rehash of "support of troops" is about the best chance/narrative that team donkey has for the upcoming elections. Cognitive dissonance banalities(1) notwithstanding. (1)https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/25/democrats-joe-biden-ukraine-war-russia-letter https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/25/democrats-jo...
        baxtr 4y ago
        Nice graphic. I have been thinking about this a bit. I think a good way to say on which side you are is to ask: Could I protest here freely? Most democratic systems will allow protests, no matter what the official/government position on the topic is. Protesting and speaking your mind will get you in serious trouble elsewhere.
  - lnsru 4y ago
    I don’t think, that politics is a topic for HN. But orcs is too nice word for the beasts who put the corpses of men in the city center and force the little crying kids to identify their dead parents. And then shoot whole families as a punishment for resistance. And the western countries are very worried again.
sandworm101 4y ago
Manpads have changed massively. There are still 30+yo systems in the field, which gives a false impression of the tech, but there are also very sophisticated new systems too.
_kbh_ 4y ago
> Only about 40 helicopters were lost to hostile fire in Iraq from 2004-2009 Russia has lost that many helicopters in about 9 months in Ukraine, id say the effectiveness of helicopters is largely dependent on the capabilities of your opponent and whether or not you can gain air superiority.
- Sakos 4y ago
  Russia has made a lot of mistakes that have nothing to do with Ukraine. I find it difficult to draw any accurate or useful conclusions from the war that translate to the US or Western armies other than don't repeat Russia's mistakes. I certainly wouldn't base any opinion on the effectiveness of helicopters in general on Russian performance in the current war.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > I certainly wouldn't base any opinion on the effectiveness of helicopters in general on Russian performance in the current war. Sure but (and I could be wrong here) isn't this the first time that modern Russia helicopters has gone up against modern MANPADS in a near peer type of conflict?. Id say it shows at least the effectiveness of different MANPADS against specific countermeasures no?.
    - Sakos 4y ago
      If the conclusions you want to draw are about Russia, fine. But it's simply not comparable to how Western armies function. I don't see how you're going to remove all the noise from the data like lack of maintenance, bad training, lack of readiness, outdated hardware, bad doctrine execution, bad leadership, etc.
    - rjsw 4y ago
      I think there will be statistics for the performance of Russian helicopters against western MANPADS from Afghanistan during the 80s. I'm not expecting that the MANPADS will have got worse since then.
  - zaphirplane 4y ago
dfc 4y ago
Russian helicopters have had a rough time because of Stingers in Afghanistan and they do not seem to be fairing a lot better in Ukraine.

by Sakos 4y ago

T-zex 4y ago

Sakos 4y ago
This is HN. Can we not use derogatory terms here?
- tokamak 4y ago
  That's what he did. I can think of much worse.
- aliswe 4y ago
  I thought he meant orcas, but I'm only basing this off CnC. Orcs as the fantasy creature? Thats just silly.
baxtr 4y ago
I am very much pro Ukraine and all that. But please let’s keep having respect for other humans. No matter how much we hate them. That’s also part of our value system we’re defending over there.
- causi 4y ago
  "Orcs" is an incredibly gentle term, but fair enough, they're not literally orcs. "The Russian invaders who rape infants and then throw them in mass graves with their parents failed to establish air superiority partly due to the effectiveness of the manpads."
  - pxmpxm 4y ago
    Oooh, do America/Iraq next
    - causi 4y ago
      That is also awful, and the way American leadership covered for those monsters nauseates me.
    - KingOfCoders 4y ago
      Look up Phoenix program for wild things. Not to take any Iraqi victims lightly, but Vietnam had much more atrocities.
      - pxmpxm 4y ago
        I think you're collectively missing my point; the two parents in this thread are phenomenal example of https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/355/607/670 https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/355/607/670 Related, but it's pretty eye opening to see left-leaning people being marketed and fully sold a war. I can only surmise this latest rehash of "support of troops" is about the best chance/narrative that team donkey has for the upcoming elections. Cognitive dissonance banalities(1) notwithstanding. (1)https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/25/democrats-joe-biden-ukraine-war-russia-letter https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/25/democrats-jo...
        baxtr 4y ago
        Nice graphic. I have been thinking about this a bit. I think a good way to say on which side you are is to ask: Could I protest here freely? Most democratic systems will allow protests, no matter what the official/government position on the topic is. Protesting and speaking your mind will get you in serious trouble elsewhere.
- lnsru 4y ago
  I don’t think, that politics is a topic for HN. But orcs is too nice word for the beasts who put the corpses of men in the city center and force the little crying kids to identify their dead parents. And then shoot whole families as a punishment for resistance. And the western countries are very worried again.

sandworm101 4y ago

Manpads have changed massively. There are still 30+yo systems in the field, which gives a false impression of the tech, but there are also very sophisticated new systems too.

_kbh_ 4y ago

> Only about 40 helicopters were lost to hostile fire in Iraq from 2004-2009 Russia has lost that many helicopters in about 9 months in Ukraine, id say the effectiveness of helicopters is largely dependent on the capabilities of your opponent and whether or not you can gain air superiority.

Sakos 4y ago
Russia has made a lot of mistakes that have nothing to do with Ukraine. I find it difficult to draw any accurate or useful conclusions from the war that translate to the US or Western armies other than don't repeat Russia's mistakes. I certainly wouldn't base any opinion on the effectiveness of helicopters in general on Russian performance in the current war.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > I certainly wouldn't base any opinion on the effectiveness of helicopters in general on Russian performance in the current war. Sure but (and I could be wrong here) isn't this the first time that modern Russia helicopters has gone up against modern MANPADS in a near peer type of conflict?. Id say it shows at least the effectiveness of different MANPADS against specific countermeasures no?.
  - Sakos 4y ago
    If the conclusions you want to draw are about Russia, fine. But it's simply not comparable to how Western armies function. I don't see how you're going to remove all the noise from the data like lack of maintenance, bad training, lack of readiness, outdated hardware, bad doctrine execution, bad leadership, etc.
  - rjsw 4y ago
    I think there will be statistics for the performance of Russian helicopters against western MANPADS from Afghanistan during the 80s. I'm not expecting that the MANPADS will have got worse since then.
- zaphirplane 4y ago

dfc 4y ago

Russian helicopters have had a rough time because of Stingers in Afghanistan and they do not seem to be fairing a lot better in Ukraine.