5 ms·

India could benefit greatly from restricting the emmigration of her top talented people. Right now the smartest Indians work abroad. The increasingly anti-west

by frontman1988 4y ago

India could benefit greatly from restricting the emmigration of her top talented people. Right now the smartest Indians work abroad. The increasingly anti-west foreign policy might be early indications of steps towards that.

sumedh 4y ago
> India could benefit greatly from restricting the emmigration of her top talented people. Why should the smartest Indians live in India and not move to developed countries?
- dmix 4y ago
  Because they were told to at gunpoint? Obviously there should be a better reason than that. But hard leaning nationalists tend to lack better ideas.
  - eklavya 4y ago
    All love is irrational. I would still rather love. Some people stay because they care, no need to be disparaging of them. You and I would not enjoy the peace and comfort of the modern world without it because somebody is irrationally willing to live/die for you and me.
    - dmix 4y ago
      There's nothing wrong with nationalism. But typically your sales pitch has to be your country is actually good, not we have to force you (and millions of others) to be here otherwise it won't be good.
      - alserio 4y ago
        There can be a lot wrong with nationalism, depending on the definition. I love "us" can also be I hate "the others". And quickly become "the others must not exist". For some arbitrary distinction of what is "us" and what is "others".
        eklavya 4y ago
        Sure, I grew up with a moral system which teaches, all world is your family. Of course, you will feel closer to the ones you live with, just like any big family.
      - eklavya 4y ago
        No, no sales pitch needed. You either already love your community and your country or you don't. No one should force themselves or others to love or hate it.
        achrono 4y ago
        Sales pitches are needed -- everywhere. The level of pride in being American that Democrats have by and large is still a kind of nationalism, albeit surely a more nuanced and conscientious one than the ones Republicans have (again by and large). Can't comment on which side is actually better for the country (that's politics), but my point is that Democrats (and allied liberals) are hypocritical in the sense that their pride is supposedly healthy patriotism while another's pride is 'nationalism'. Ultimataly both Democrats and Republicans are sustained by extensive sales pitches of what America (TM) is all about. Democrats seem to think their politics represents the One Final Political Solution to End Misery Everywhere, but it is still based on aforementioned sales pitches all around ("We're on the Good side!").
twixfel 4y ago
If people want to leave your country, it makes more sense to make them want to stay rather than force them to stay. Besides, in the end, emigration is good for India. Indeed one of the things that India wants from the UK for a trade deal is relaxed visa rules.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
i67vw3 4y ago
>The increasingly anti-west foreign policy might be early indications of steps towards that. There is no 'anti-west' foreign policy. India follows neutrality in most geo-political nonsense due to its non-alignment philosophy. It has followed it for the past 75 years and will continue to follow it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement
cuteboy19 4y ago
The current govt is the most pro western it's ever been. India was usually on the Soviet side of the cold war
- suoduandao2 4y ago
  India seems to genuinely embrace Democracy though, which tends to stick in Western minds much more than the complications of Realpolitik.
mrphoebs 4y ago
India is not anti west. The west has this binary/absolute way of looking at things, "either somebody is with them or against them". India recognises the world is a much more complicated place and sees the world through its own perspective rather than whatever self serving agenda driven perspective the west deems as the only valid one. India has a long track record of being a non-aligned power. If anything india has been moving closer and closer to the west since the 90s. I think this misinterpretation of india being against the west by some in the west is because they expect their allies to be cronies who'll toe the line.
- twixfel 4y ago
  But even that perspective that you ascribe to India is reductive. It seems in your view, India are the only ones who understand complexity, the West are just arrogant morons. In reality, everyone's equally just looking out for themselves. In the West we don't care about Kashmir, in India people don't care about Ukraine. It's the same, until one day India will discover that Russia is useless against China and the US and the West are not. And then there will be a realignment. When it happens it won't be about any fancy ideals, it'll just be interests realigning.
  - mrphoebs 4y ago
    I haven't ascribed an independent perspective to india exclusively, merely pointed out india has an independent perspective. And I did not say west are arrogant morons I said "Some in the west". I agree with you and as does anybody with even a passing familiarity with international diplomacy, foreign policy by its very nature is about engaging with other countries to further a nation's self interests. The problem is western democracies need to create a narrative of being the white knights of the world in order to justify use of force, coercion or influence to their people no matter how hypocritical that narrative might be considering their own actions in the past. This absolute narrative by extension also means anyone who isn't falling in line with the party line is painted as being on the "wrong side of history". India is neither aligned with the west nor russia because of a single policy issue like china, and india does not see the world as a bipolar place like west vs russia, west vs china, whoever vs whoever... India always engages and will always engage with nations where mutual interests are aligned, help where it can, and be assertive where it needs to be. India is already aligned with the west in containing china amid other common objectives in the indian ocean through QUAD. Also china isn't that big of a bugbear for india as some outside india think it is. China is the dominant strategic regional threat but is by no means even remotely close to an existential one.
howinteresting 4y ago
Indian society is hostile towards women's and LGBTQ freedoms. Why should an Indian woman or LGBTQ person (or both) who has emigrated to a freer society have to go back to that?
- achrono 4y ago
  It is 'hostile' today also to a whole bunch of other freedoms. It isn't realistic to expect that India will automatically have the same values as the West, and while it is at that to also anticipate & go ahead of the West on that same yardstick, because only the West can define the values of the West. What India does need to do is to define its own response to the question of how society views LGBTQ. In some cases, in some sections of traditional society, it has developed an answer that is inclusive and friendly. In some other cases it is simply copying from the West, which is what the mainstream discourse is also heading towards. The latter imo is not authentic and will fail India in the long run.
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    That isn't really responsive to my question? I don't care whether something is culturally "authentic" or not. I care about whether people can live the life they want to live or not.
    - achrono 4y ago
      "whether people can live the life they want" is itself influenced by culture, i.e. it is one thing to say that LGBTQ+ should not be ostracized but another to come up with specific models of how to deliver on this value. What I'm trying to say is that there need not be just one way to deliver on this value -- there can be more than one valid approach to making LGBT folks have freedom & respect.
      - howinteresting 4y ago
        Yes and even if it is (which it isn't today), if someone prefers one model why should they be forced to move to a country with another?
rramadass 4y ago
India has never been "Anti-West" even in the worst of times. Speech by Indian External Affairs Minister S.Jaishankar on this very topic : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUtbsPOE944 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUtbsPOE944

sumedh 4y ago

> India could benefit greatly from restricting the emmigration of her top talented people. Why should the smartest Indians live in India and not move to developed countries?

dmix 4y ago
Because they were told to at gunpoint? Obviously there should be a better reason than that. But hard leaning nationalists tend to lack better ideas.
- eklavya 4y ago
  All love is irrational. I would still rather love. Some people stay because they care, no need to be disparaging of them. You and I would not enjoy the peace and comfort of the modern world without it because somebody is irrationally willing to live/die for you and me.
  - dmix 4y ago
    There's nothing wrong with nationalism. But typically your sales pitch has to be your country is actually good, not we have to force you (and millions of others) to be here otherwise it won't be good.
    - alserio 4y ago
      There can be a lot wrong with nationalism, depending on the definition. I love "us" can also be I hate "the others". And quickly become "the others must not exist". For some arbitrary distinction of what is "us" and what is "others".
      - eklavya 4y ago
        Sure, I grew up with a moral system which teaches, all world is your family. Of course, you will feel closer to the ones you live with, just like any big family.
    - eklavya 4y ago
      No, no sales pitch needed. You either already love your community and your country or you don't. No one should force themselves or others to love or hate it.
      - achrono 4y ago
        Sales pitches are needed -- everywhere. The level of pride in being American that Democrats have by and large is still a kind of nationalism, albeit surely a more nuanced and conscientious one than the ones Republicans have (again by and large). Can't comment on which side is actually better for the country (that's politics), but my point is that Democrats (and allied liberals) are hypocritical in the sense that their pride is supposedly healthy patriotism while another's pride is 'nationalism'. Ultimataly both Democrats and Republicans are sustained by extensive sales pitches of what America (TM) is all about. Democrats seem to think their politics represents the One Final Political Solution to End Misery Everywhere, but it is still based on aforementioned sales pitches all around ("We're on the Good side!").

twixfel 4y ago

If people want to leave your country, it makes more sense to make them want to stay rather than force them to stay. Besides, in the end, emigration is good for India. Indeed one of the things that India wants from the UK for a trade deal is relaxed visa rules.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

i67vw3 4y ago

>The increasingly anti-west foreign policy might be early indications of steps towards that. There is no 'anti-west' foreign policy. India follows neutrality in most geo-political nonsense due to its non-alignment philosophy. It has followed it for the past 75 years and will continue to follow it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement

cuteboy19 4y ago

The current govt is the most pro western it's ever been. India was usually on the Soviet side of the cold war

suoduandao2 4y ago
India seems to genuinely embrace Democracy though, which tends to stick in Western minds much more than the complications of Realpolitik.

mrphoebs 4y ago

India is not anti west. The west has this binary/absolute way of looking at things, "either somebody is with them or against them". India recognises the world is a much more complicated place and sees the world through its own perspective rather than whatever self serving agenda driven perspective the west deems as the only valid one. India has a long track record of being a non-aligned power. If anything india has been moving closer and closer to the west since the 90s. I think this misinterpretation of india being against the west by some in the west is because they expect their allies to be cronies who'll toe the line.

twixfel 4y ago
But even that perspective that you ascribe to India is reductive. It seems in your view, India are the only ones who understand complexity, the West are just arrogant morons. In reality, everyone's equally just looking out for themselves. In the West we don't care about Kashmir, in India people don't care about Ukraine. It's the same, until one day India will discover that Russia is useless against China and the US and the West are not. And then there will be a realignment. When it happens it won't be about any fancy ideals, it'll just be interests realigning.
- mrphoebs 4y ago
  I haven't ascribed an independent perspective to india exclusively, merely pointed out india has an independent perspective. And I did not say west are arrogant morons I said "Some in the west". I agree with you and as does anybody with even a passing familiarity with international diplomacy, foreign policy by its very nature is about engaging with other countries to further a nation's self interests. The problem is western democracies need to create a narrative of being the white knights of the world in order to justify use of force, coercion or influence to their people no matter how hypocritical that narrative might be considering their own actions in the past. This absolute narrative by extension also means anyone who isn't falling in line with the party line is painted as being on the "wrong side of history". India is neither aligned with the west nor russia because of a single policy issue like china, and india does not see the world as a bipolar place like west vs russia, west vs china, whoever vs whoever... India always engages and will always engage with nations where mutual interests are aligned, help where it can, and be assertive where it needs to be. India is already aligned with the west in containing china amid other common objectives in the indian ocean through QUAD. Also china isn't that big of a bugbear for india as some outside india think it is. China is the dominant strategic regional threat but is by no means even remotely close to an existential one.

howinteresting 4y ago

Indian society is hostile towards women's and LGBTQ freedoms. Why should an Indian woman or LGBTQ person (or both) who has emigrated to a freer society have to go back to that?

achrono 4y ago
It is 'hostile' today also to a whole bunch of other freedoms. It isn't realistic to expect that India will automatically have the same values as the West, and while it is at that to also anticipate & go ahead of the West on that same yardstick, because only the West can define the values of the West. What India does need to do is to define its own response to the question of how society views LGBTQ. In some cases, in some sections of traditional society, it has developed an answer that is inclusive and friendly. In some other cases it is simply copying from the West, which is what the mainstream discourse is also heading towards. The latter imo is not authentic and will fail India in the long run.
- howinteresting 4y ago
  That isn't really responsive to my question? I don't care whether something is culturally "authentic" or not. I care about whether people can live the life they want to live or not.
  - achrono 4y ago
    "whether people can live the life they want" is itself influenced by culture, i.e. it is one thing to say that LGBTQ+ should not be ostracized but another to come up with specific models of how to deliver on this value. What I'm trying to say is that there need not be just one way to deliver on this value -- there can be more than one valid approach to making LGBT folks have freedom & respect.
    - howinteresting 4y ago
      Yes and even if it is (which it isn't today), if someone prefers one model why should they be forced to move to a country with another?

rramadass 4y ago

India has never been "Anti-West" even in the worst of times. Speech by Indian External Affairs Minister S.Jaishankar on this very topic : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUtbsPOE944 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUtbsPOE944