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Always disappoints me when people who advocate for ending daylight saving are completely unaware that it was tried in Britain not long ago and generally hated.

by padjo 4y ago

aidos 4y ago
I’m not aware of it myself. When did we last not have BST in the Uk?
- oarsinsync 4y ago
  From the article: 1) 193 weeks (18 Feb 1968 - 31 Oct 1971) In 1968 Harold Wilson's government decreed that Britain would shift to permament GMT+1 by not switching the clocks back an hour in October. Technically this was British Standard Time, not British Summer Time, as there was no intention to return to seasonal time adjustments. This change increased evening daylight throughout the winter months (which was popular) but also delayed sunrise (which was not, especially in Scotland). Statistics showed that road accidents decreased in the evening more than they increased in the morning, which was good, but this couldn't be pinned down solely to the time change. Ultimately permanent BST proved unpopular enough that Parliament voted to end it by 366 votes to 81, a fairly convincing rebuttal, and the annual switcheroo has continued ever since.
  - lozenge 4y ago
    Not long ago? Everybody who was studying at the time is now working age, anybody who was working age is now retired...
  - aidos 4y ago
    That’s the opposite.
    - matthewmacleod 4y ago
      The thing people object to about daylight savings time is the act of changing the clocks - not the new times themselves. You’re correct that the country remained in UTC+1, but it would be difficult to describe that as “daylight savings time” if the clocks stop changing.
      - Retric 4y ago
        Changing sleep cycles is more of a pain than clocks, it’s automatic in the vast majority of devices. I’ve not even realized the switch happened a few times because my alarm and everything else changed automatically. If you’re still changing wall clocks manually there is a much better option: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock
      - aidos 4y ago
        Maybe most people object to that, but personally I like to have daylight hours first thing in the morning to pop out for a run to start the day. There’s a weird bit in October where you lose the ability to do that because of BST. I was genuinely curious as to when the Uk last didn’t have BST. I believe the the answer might be a very long time ago, in conflict with the original assertion I was replying to. If people pick through my responses here it’s very strange that I’m being downvoted. I suspect maybe a few people have forgotten to follow the HN rule of trying to read charitably.
        ghaff 4y ago
        It's a mix. There's definitely a camp of pick a time zone--any time zone--but don't change it over the course of the year. And then there's a camp that doesn't want winter (in higher latitudes) to involve getting up and about in pitch blackness for "normal" schedules but also likes long summer evenings rather than sunrise at 5am.
        soneil 4y ago
        The UK last spent a whole year on GMT in 1915.
ginko 4y ago
They didn't try to end daylight saving, they tried to keep DST (i.e. Summer time) for the entire year.
- matthewmacleod 4y ago
  That’s the same thing - I would argue that the common idea of “daylight saving time” is the act of switching clocks, not the time zone itself. It’s just that the country settled on UTC+1 with no DST.
  - lifthrasiir 4y ago
    The United Kingdom spans from ~8 degrees west to ~2 degrees east, making UTC+0 its natural (local mean solar) time zone. So it is not a stretch to argue that switching to UTC+0 all year round would have a better result. Conversely, it is obvious that UK switching to UTC+12 would have a very bad time compared to UTC+0 or UTC+1; so the same point can be said for UTC+0 vs. UTC+1 as well.
    - throw0101c 4y ago
      > The United Kingdom spans from ~8 degrees west to ~2 degrees east, making UTC+0 its natural (local mean solar) time zone. Not only is it "natural" it was the basis of timezone in the first place. We now use UTC, but not too far back, and originally, it was called GMT. The definition of 12h00 GMT was when the sun reached its zenith at the Prime Meridian, which cuts through… Greenwich.
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    The sun should be highest at noon and lowest at midnight. Summer time breaks this.
    - matthewmacleod 4y ago
      The sun “should” be wherever makes the most sense taking into account the cultural, geographical, and social factors that affect time zones and their selection. There is no objective correct standard.
mnd999 4y ago
Sure but that was different times. Patterns of work were very different in the late 60s. It’s a shame the article is so light on why this was unpopular. Happy to be shown to be wrong on this, but to me switching to permanent BST seems like a no-brainier.
- matthewmacleod 4y ago
  I’d’ve said so too, but speaking to the members of my family who went through it back then - the consensus from them was that it meant sunrise further north wasn’t until almost 10am. So then you had people travelling to work and school in the morning noticeably darker. I can see why that would be less popular than dealing with it in the evenings.
rrwo 4y ago
Extending BST is not as popular in Northern England and Scotland. It's bad enough when sunrise is after 9am in the middle of the winter, after most people have travelled to work or children to school.
tiagod 4y ago
I live in Portugal and wish we had summer time all year round. We're not Britain, our days are longer, it sucks for night to suddenly come 1 hour earlier.

Always disappoints me when people who advocate for ending daylight saving are completely unaware that it was tried in Britain not long ago and generally hated.

by padjo 4y ago

Always disappoints me when people who advocate for ending daylight saving are completely unaware that it was tried in Britain not long ago and generally hated.

aidos 4y ago

I’m not aware of it myself. When did we last not have BST in the Uk?

oarsinsync 4y ago
From the article: 1) 193 weeks (18 Feb 1968 - 31 Oct 1971) In 1968 Harold Wilson's government decreed that Britain would shift to permament GMT+1 by not switching the clocks back an hour in October. Technically this was British Standard Time, not British Summer Time, as there was no intention to return to seasonal time adjustments. This change increased evening daylight throughout the winter months (which was popular) but also delayed sunrise (which was not, especially in Scotland). Statistics showed that road accidents decreased in the evening more than they increased in the morning, which was good, but this couldn't be pinned down solely to the time change. Ultimately permanent BST proved unpopular enough that Parliament voted to end it by 366 votes to 81, a fairly convincing rebuttal, and the annual switcheroo has continued ever since.
- lozenge 4y ago
  Not long ago? Everybody who was studying at the time is now working age, anybody who was working age is now retired...
- aidos 4y ago
  That’s the opposite.
  - matthewmacleod 4y ago
    The thing people object to about daylight savings time is the act of changing the clocks - not the new times themselves. You’re correct that the country remained in UTC+1, but it would be difficult to describe that as “daylight savings time” if the clocks stop changing.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Changing sleep cycles is more of a pain than clocks, it’s automatic in the vast majority of devices. I’ve not even realized the switch happened a few times because my alarm and everything else changed automatically. If you’re still changing wall clocks manually there is a much better option: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock
    - aidos 4y ago
      Maybe most people object to that, but personally I like to have daylight hours first thing in the morning to pop out for a run to start the day. There’s a weird bit in October where you lose the ability to do that because of BST. I was genuinely curious as to when the Uk last didn’t have BST. I believe the the answer might be a very long time ago, in conflict with the original assertion I was replying to. If people pick through my responses here it’s very strange that I’m being downvoted. I suspect maybe a few people have forgotten to follow the HN rule of trying to read charitably.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        It's a mix. There's definitely a camp of pick a time zone--any time zone--but don't change it over the course of the year. And then there's a camp that doesn't want winter (in higher latitudes) to involve getting up and about in pitch blackness for "normal" schedules but also likes long summer evenings rather than sunrise at 5am.
      - soneil 4y ago
        The UK last spent a whole year on GMT in 1915.

ginko 4y ago

They didn't try to end daylight saving, they tried to keep DST (i.e. Summer time) for the entire year.

matthewmacleod 4y ago
That’s the same thing - I would argue that the common idea of “daylight saving time” is the act of switching clocks, not the time zone itself. It’s just that the country settled on UTC+1 with no DST.
- lifthrasiir 4y ago
  The United Kingdom spans from ~8 degrees west to ~2 degrees east, making UTC+0 its natural (local mean solar) time zone. So it is not a stretch to argue that switching to UTC+0 all year round would have a better result. Conversely, it is obvious that UK switching to UTC+12 would have a very bad time compared to UTC+0 or UTC+1; so the same point can be said for UTC+0 vs. UTC+1 as well.
  - throw0101c 4y ago
    > The United Kingdom spans from ~8 degrees west to ~2 degrees east, making UTC+0 its natural (local mean solar) time zone. Not only is it "natural" it was the basis of timezone in the first place. We now use UTC, but not too far back, and originally, it was called GMT. The definition of 12h00 GMT was when the sun reached its zenith at the Prime Meridian, which cuts through… Greenwich.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  The sun should be highest at noon and lowest at midnight. Summer time breaks this.
  - matthewmacleod 4y ago
    The sun “should” be wherever makes the most sense taking into account the cultural, geographical, and social factors that affect time zones and their selection. There is no objective correct standard.

mnd999 4y ago

Sure but that was different times. Patterns of work were very different in the late 60s. It’s a shame the article is so light on why this was unpopular. Happy to be shown to be wrong on this, but to me switching to permanent BST seems like a no-brainier.

matthewmacleod 4y ago
I’d’ve said so too, but speaking to the members of my family who went through it back then - the consensus from them was that it meant sunrise further north wasn’t until almost 10am. So then you had people travelling to work and school in the morning noticeably darker. I can see why that would be less popular than dealing with it in the evenings.

rrwo 4y ago

Extending BST is not as popular in Northern England and Scotland. It's bad enough when sunrise is after 9am in the middle of the winter, after most people have travelled to work or children to school.

tiagod 4y ago

I live in Portugal and wish we had summer time all year round. We're not Britain, our days are longer, it sucks for night to suddenly come 1 hour earlier.