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> Can you offer pointers to the things you think are delivering real benefits to anyone whose primary goal isn't finding buyers for random hashes? I prepared t

> Can you offer pointers to the things you think are delivering real benefits to anyone whose primary goal isn't finding buyers for random hashes? I prepared this post summarizing the real world usage of Bitcoin just for people like you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095 Another news from the last couple of days: https://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/nyic/project-cedar https://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/nyic/project-cedar [submitted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33479015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33479015]

kkielhofner 4y ago
Let’s go with those. Truly beneficial for the parties referenced. At the risk of sounding somewhat cold and calculating: Is that worth the carbon emissions of the entire country of Argentina? How many people are dying from the resulting climate impact? How many lives have been ruined from the gambling related to bitcoin? How many times have bitcoin forums had to post suicide hotline numbers? How many criminal enterprises, oppressive governments (like North Korea), etc have been enabled by bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies from ransomware and countless, endless scams? While I do acknowledge the use cases you’ve provided and truly do sympathize with the (relatively few - tiny) people who benefit I cannot see how it could possibly be net positive.
acdha 4y ago
Okay, let's go with those — and we'll even assume that they're fully accurate and representative. Money laundering wasn't exactly impossible before so the two questions here are whether it was cost-effective for the users (someone in Nigeria has less capacity to soak up one of those speculative swings, after all) and safe to use. That last part is significant because while the Bitcoin marketing team likes to talk about it being anonymous or “censorship resistant”, it's extremely risky for anyone to use when their threat model includes the government they live under. Yes, I'm sure someone has been able to transfer money to a Russian or Chinese dissident but once that becomes at all significant, consider the incredible risk that poses to the recipient. They can't make a transaction without making highly-distinctive network traffic, they can't use the funds locally without finding someone willing to take them which is risky to both parties since you're betting that the other party isn't compromised, and unlike regular currency transactions you're leaving an immutable public audit trail. If any party involved ever has records which the police obtain, they now have hard evidence to go after everyone they've ever transacted with rather than just the ones they observed after learning of that blackmarket activity. Better hope that you and everyone you ever do business with has perfect opsec… This isn't some idle speculation, either — there have been a number of cases where Bitcoin provided key evidence linking people's activity and allowing the police to wrap up an entire group rather than the one guy they caught. Here's an example of where that was used for good: https://www.wired.com/story/tracers-in-the-dark-welcome-to-video-crypto-anonymity-myth/ https://www.wired.com/story/tracers-in-the-dark-welcome-to-v... Now, I personally would not like to see political dissidents in China or Russia meet the same fate so I would not want to tell them Bitcoin is suitable for this task.
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  What do you think about NY Fed's project I linked, which demonstrated that "blockchain-enabled cross-border payments can be faster, simultaneous, and safer" (their words, not mine). Speaking of dissidents subverting their governments, I personally know people who are using cryptocurrencies to assist their families stuck under the said governments. There might be some risks, but when they don't have any other way to exchange value, crypto is a lifeline.
  - acdha 4y ago
    It’s a prototype but also not how most cryptocurrency people use blockchain. It’s a shared ledger between a couple of banks, organized by a central bank. It’s no surprise that this works because it doesn’t drag in all of the notorious drawbacks trying to do the pseudo-anonymous permission-less stuff, or trying to be a separate currency.
    - RestlessMind 4y ago
      What is the specific drawback of pseudo-anonymous permission-less stuff? > trying to be a separate currency. None of the serious crypto projects I am aware of (which are Bitcoin, Ethererum and its L2's basically) claim to be a currency. Bitcoin is an asset. ETH is a currency only for the ETH ecosystem and does not claim to be something along the lines of a popular definition of currency.

kkielhofner 4y ago

Let’s go with those. Truly beneficial for the parties referenced. At the risk of sounding somewhat cold and calculating: Is that worth the carbon emissions of the entire country of Argentina? How many people are dying from the resulting climate impact? How many lives have been ruined from the gambling related to bitcoin? How many times have bitcoin forums had to post suicide hotline numbers? How many criminal enterprises, oppressive governments (like North Korea), etc have been enabled by bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies from ransomware and countless, endless scams? While I do acknowledge the use cases you’ve provided and truly do sympathize with the (relatively few - tiny) people who benefit I cannot see how it could possibly be net positive.

acdha 4y ago

Okay, let's go with those — and we'll even assume that they're fully accurate and representative. Money laundering wasn't exactly impossible before so the two questions here are whether it was cost-effective for the users (someone in Nigeria has less capacity to soak up one of those speculative swings, after all) and safe to use. That last part is significant because while the Bitcoin marketing team likes to talk about it being anonymous or “censorship resistant”, it's extremely risky for anyone to use when their threat model includes the government they live under. Yes, I'm sure someone has been able to transfer money to a Russian or Chinese dissident but once that becomes at all significant, consider the incredible risk that poses to the recipient. They can't make a transaction without making highly-distinctive network traffic, they can't use the funds locally without finding someone willing to take them which is risky to both parties since you're betting that the other party isn't compromised, and unlike regular currency transactions you're leaving an immutable public audit trail. If any party involved ever has records which the police obtain, they now have hard evidence to go after everyone they've ever transacted with rather than just the ones they observed after learning of that blackmarket activity. Better hope that you and everyone you ever do business with has perfect opsec… This isn't some idle speculation, either — there have been a number of cases where Bitcoin provided key evidence linking people's activity and allowing the police to wrap up an entire group rather than the one guy they caught. Here's an example of where that was used for good: https://www.wired.com/story/tracers-in-the-dark-welcome-to-video-crypto-anonymity-myth/ https://www.wired.com/story/tracers-in-the-dark-welcome-to-v... Now, I personally would not like to see political dissidents in China or Russia meet the same fate so I would not want to tell them Bitcoin is suitable for this task.

RestlessMind 4y ago
What do you think about NY Fed's project I linked, which demonstrated that "blockchain-enabled cross-border payments can be faster, simultaneous, and safer" (their words, not mine). Speaking of dissidents subverting their governments, I personally know people who are using cryptocurrencies to assist their families stuck under the said governments. There might be some risks, but when they don't have any other way to exchange value, crypto is a lifeline.
- acdha 4y ago
  It’s a prototype but also not how most cryptocurrency people use blockchain. It’s a shared ledger between a couple of banks, organized by a central bank. It’s no surprise that this works because it doesn’t drag in all of the notorious drawbacks trying to do the pseudo-anonymous permission-less stuff, or trying to be a separate currency.
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    What is the specific drawback of pseudo-anonymous permission-less stuff? > trying to be a separate currency. None of the serious crypto projects I am aware of (which are Bitcoin, Ethererum and its L2's basically) claim to be a currency. Bitcoin is an asset. ETH is a currency only for the ETH ecosystem and does not claim to be something along the lines of a popular definition of currency.