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It doesn't seem sensible to invest yourself so much into Mastodon without having thorougly explored it. I too was fascinated with the fediverse, until I used i

It doesn't seem sensible to invest yourself so much into Mastodon without having thorougly explored it. I too was fascinated with the fediverse, until I used it for more than a month and realized the people posting there were just as toxic and annoying as Twitters, not to mention the plenty of instances where the petty owners have made everything even worse

TulliusCicero 4y ago
It's possible that it's just the broadcasting format that makes things suck, rather than Twitter's specific content/moderation policies. It's like handing a ton of people in a room all megaphones to talk to each other; the incentive is always going to be that you should be 'louder' to get more attention over everyone else.
- nathias 4y ago
  people with megaphones are the point, the problem is when there are mechanisms of moderation to manipulate them and make them into groups, if there is no such mecanisms and moderation is up to the user completely(unfollow/block) things function very differently
  - TulliusCicero 4y ago
    Moderation that is solely user-based doesn't work well at scale. It means you expect every user to block every asshole they come across, and each time they have to endure some asshole first before blocking them.
    - nathias 4y ago
      for me that would be completely reasonable, but it isn't necessary, you can have many decentralized filters like automatically block people that are blocked by a % of people I follow and many similar mechanisms
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
OscarCunningham 4y ago
Yeah but you don't have to follow them. I'm sure some terrible people use email, but email is still good.
- FortiDude 4y ago
  I also don't need to follow toxic people on Twitter, so I really don't know why I would use a badly programmed and infinitely smaller social network
  - croes 4y ago
    To not support it's new owner
    - FortiDude 4y ago
      We know many things about Musk because he's a well known public figure which has attracted the attention of plenty of investigative journalists. But what do you know about the owners of the Mastodon instance you registered your account with? Are they accountable? Are they sensible? Are they competent? Do they even have a real identity?
      - croes 4y ago
        They are at least less powerful and resourceful and you can simply switch your instance or make your own. None of this is true for Twitter.
        FortiDude 4y ago
        A Mastodon instance owner can read everything you've ever posted, log everything even if you deleted it, doxx your IP and your private messages, delete or modify everything about your account on a whim and block you even if you make an account elsewhere. Plus they can keep very quiet about it since they have zero accountability. So yeah, you can go to another instance, but better keep some kind of backup because you could be gone without notice
DoItToMe81 4y ago
For Mastodon to 'work' in a way I'd enjoy, it would need a culture that it just does not have, and that has never emerged from any microblogging platform. The Fediverse as a whole is filled with enraged culture warriors, going out of their own way to be upset and exclude others. I don't buy into the "Well, you can just grow YOUR OWN island!" spiel. I don't want to make an echo chamber, I want a healthy environment where people from disparate backgrounds can discuss a topic without "AS AN XYZ THIS IS BAD AND EVIL" being the key point of discussion. And I know for a fact that the large instances that operate in that way would immediately defederate for wrongthink.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  > I want a healthy environment where people from disparate backgrounds can discuss a topic without "AS AN XYZ THIS IS BAD AND EVIL" being the key point of discussion. I'm pretty sure that this qualifies as an "island" - one that you would need pretty harsh moderation to maintain too, not unlike HN itself. And of course you'd likely want to defederate from the largest instances, to get away from their toxic attitudes.
- firefoxkekw 4y ago
  Just wait until people start realizing the privacy problems that Mastodon have unless you make your own instance. You don't like the new twitter moderation? oh wellcome to Mastodon where a 12 year old can be a moderator of a instance. Global guidelines for moderation? No in Mastodon since each instance can have their own rules, 10/10 if you love being in echo chambers. Created your account in a random instance? oh well maybe all your messages end in doxbin because the 14 year old who made the instance have access to all your messages.
  - mcherm 4y ago
    I just can't get myself to see this as a genuine disadvantage. On Mastodon you can choose the server to use (and thus the moderation). Sure, this means you can choose a server run by a 12-year-old who moderates poorly. But if you don't want that... don't pick that server! The problem (no, ONE of the many problems) with creating good moderation is that different people have different definitions of what constitutes "good" moderation so it's impossible to satisfy all of them. If Mastodon allows the user to choose, that seems inherently better.
Tepix 4y ago
That's not been my experience, so far i have seen less toxicity.
amatecha 4y ago
I mean, what instance did you register on? Because I've been using it for a couple years and uhh, the toxicity is nearly non-existent for me. I see some stupid crap once in a while in a response to some highly-followed user, but then I just mute the person's entire instance (if I find that similarly-toxic crap is a common sort of output from there). Simultaneously, I've had more meaningful communication on Mastodon in the past week than I've had on twitter in the past year. I have just over 200 followers and Mastodon, and nearly 1400 on Twitter. So yeah, I've thoroughly explored it, and I am definitely investing myself into it -- and have no intention of going back. I have already stopped checking Twitter for weeks at a time or longer. I only open it to see if I have a message from a friend (since I turn off email notifications for basically everything), or maybe tweet at some brand whose service has made my day crappier.
- sshine 4y ago
  > or maybe tweet at some brand whose service has made my day crappier It's like something must stink before it goes on Twitter.
  - amatecha 4y ago
    Twitter is usually the only reliable, direct way to ask a question of a faceless corporation because they happen to prioritize actually answering tweets. I don't know why, but it's become the only way I ask questions of some service that has millions of users, because I don't feel like signing up an account on a service portal or filing a ticket with a convoluted customer support system. Or even worse, "chatting" with a bot that will just funnel me to poorly-written FAQs that don't even remotely help me with the problem I'm encountering.
- amatecha 4y ago
  Since I made the above post (two days ago) I now have 243 followers. All people who I'm in contact with on other platforms - I'm not even sure how they found me, but either way. The momentum is honestly accelerating. Sorry, 244 followers - just got another follow request.
glenstein 4y ago
>until I used it for more than a month and realized the people posting there were just as toxic and annoying as Twitters, Not even close to my experience as a Mastodon user and I've been on it for years. I guess this shows the limited predictive value of any single individuals experiences.

TulliusCicero 4y ago

It's possible that it's just the broadcasting format that makes things suck, rather than Twitter's specific content/moderation policies. It's like handing a ton of people in a room all megaphones to talk to each other; the incentive is always going to be that you should be 'louder' to get more attention over everyone else.

nathias 4y ago
people with megaphones are the point, the problem is when there are mechanisms of moderation to manipulate them and make them into groups, if there is no such mecanisms and moderation is up to the user completely(unfollow/block) things function very differently
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Moderation that is solely user-based doesn't work well at scale. It means you expect every user to block every asshole they come across, and each time they have to endure some asshole first before blocking them.
  - nathias 4y ago
    for me that would be completely reasonable, but it isn't necessary, you can have many decentralized filters like automatically block people that are blocked by a % of people I follow and many similar mechanisms
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

OscarCunningham 4y ago

Yeah but you don't have to follow them. I'm sure some terrible people use email, but email is still good.

FortiDude 4y ago
I also don't need to follow toxic people on Twitter, so I really don't know why I would use a badly programmed and infinitely smaller social network
- croes 4y ago
  To not support it's new owner
  - FortiDude 4y ago
    We know many things about Musk because he's a well known public figure which has attracted the attention of plenty of investigative journalists. But what do you know about the owners of the Mastodon instance you registered your account with? Are they accountable? Are they sensible? Are they competent? Do they even have a real identity?
    - croes 4y ago
      They are at least less powerful and resourceful and you can simply switch your instance or make your own. None of this is true for Twitter.
      - FortiDude 4y ago
        A Mastodon instance owner can read everything you've ever posted, log everything even if you deleted it, doxx your IP and your private messages, delete or modify everything about your account on a whim and block you even if you make an account elsewhere. Plus they can keep very quiet about it since they have zero accountability. So yeah, you can go to another instance, but better keep some kind of backup because you could be gone without notice

DoItToMe81 4y ago

For Mastodon to 'work' in a way I'd enjoy, it would need a culture that it just does not have, and that has never emerged from any microblogging platform. The Fediverse as a whole is filled with enraged culture warriors, going out of their own way to be upset and exclude others. I don't buy into the "Well, you can just grow YOUR OWN island!" spiel. I don't want to make an echo chamber, I want a healthy environment where people from disparate backgrounds can discuss a topic without "AS AN XYZ THIS IS BAD AND EVIL" being the key point of discussion. And I know for a fact that the large instances that operate in that way would immediately defederate for wrongthink.

zozbot234 4y ago
> I want a healthy environment where people from disparate backgrounds can discuss a topic without "AS AN XYZ THIS IS BAD AND EVIL" being the key point of discussion. I'm pretty sure that this qualifies as an "island" - one that you would need pretty harsh moderation to maintain too, not unlike HN itself. And of course you'd likely want to defederate from the largest instances, to get away from their toxic attitudes.
firefoxkekw 4y ago
Just wait until people start realizing the privacy problems that Mastodon have unless you make your own instance. You don't like the new twitter moderation? oh wellcome to Mastodon where a 12 year old can be a moderator of a instance. Global guidelines for moderation? No in Mastodon since each instance can have their own rules, 10/10 if you love being in echo chambers. Created your account in a random instance? oh well maybe all your messages end in doxbin because the 14 year old who made the instance have access to all your messages.
- mcherm 4y ago
  I just can't get myself to see this as a genuine disadvantage. On Mastodon you can choose the server to use (and thus the moderation). Sure, this means you can choose a server run by a 12-year-old who moderates poorly. But if you don't want that... don't pick that server! The problem (no, ONE of the many problems) with creating good moderation is that different people have different definitions of what constitutes "good" moderation so it's impossible to satisfy all of them. If Mastodon allows the user to choose, that seems inherently better.

Tepix 4y ago

That's not been my experience, so far i have seen less toxicity.

amatecha 4y ago

I mean, what instance did you register on? Because I've been using it for a couple years and uhh, the toxicity is nearly non-existent for me. I see some stupid crap once in a while in a response to some highly-followed user, but then I just mute the person's entire instance (if I find that similarly-toxic crap is a common sort of output from there). Simultaneously, I've had more meaningful communication on Mastodon in the past week than I've had on twitter in the past year. I have just over 200 followers and Mastodon, and nearly 1400 on Twitter. So yeah, I've thoroughly explored it, and I am definitely investing myself into it -- and have no intention of going back. I have already stopped checking Twitter for weeks at a time or longer. I only open it to see if I have a message from a friend (since I turn off email notifications for basically everything), or maybe tweet at some brand whose service has made my day crappier.

sshine 4y ago
> or maybe tweet at some brand whose service has made my day crappier It's like something must stink before it goes on Twitter.
- amatecha 4y ago
  Twitter is usually the only reliable, direct way to ask a question of a faceless corporation because they happen to prioritize actually answering tweets. I don't know why, but it's become the only way I ask questions of some service that has millions of users, because I don't feel like signing up an account on a service portal or filing a ticket with a convoluted customer support system. Or even worse, "chatting" with a bot that will just funnel me to poorly-written FAQs that don't even remotely help me with the problem I'm encountering.
amatecha 4y ago
Since I made the above post (two days ago) I now have 243 followers. All people who I'm in contact with on other platforms - I'm not even sure how they found me, but either way. The momentum is honestly accelerating. Sorry, 244 followers - just got another follow request.

glenstein 4y ago

>until I used it for more than a month and realized the people posting there were just as toxic and annoying as Twitters, Not even close to my experience as a Mastodon user and I've been on it for years. I guess this shows the limited predictive value of any single individuals experiences.