4 ms·

So, we should ignore Web3. Fine. But should we ignore Solid? The project started in 2016. Can you _do_ anything with it yet? You can "start a pod", but all the

by abeppu 4y ago

So, we should ignore Web3. Fine. But should we ignore Solid? The project started in 2016. Can you _do_ anything with it yet? You can "start a pod", but all the apps are clearly written to demonstrate the platform features rather than to _do_ anything or meet any user need. Of the ones listed, I couldn't actually get any to work with a newly created pod. https://solidproject.org/users/get-a-pod https://solidproject.org/users/get-a-pod https://solidproject.org/apps https://solidproject.org/apps

nr2x 4y ago
Why not both?
wmf 4y ago
Solid is probably not going to happen and it does give TimBL the appearance of a conflict of interest, but if you can put that aside his point stands.
- krapp 4y ago
  It stands either way. One can have a conflict of interest, or even be a hypocrite, and still be correct.
- abeppu 4y ago
  I don't think there's a 'conflict of interest' here; he has a startup, was talking at a web conference, and expressed an opinion about the landscape. I don't take issue with his points about web3. I would like to see _something_ that moves towards decentralization (or at least weaker centralization / greater portability), and if it's not Solid, I hope something else will step into that gap. But I am genuinely confused why there's not at least _something_ useful built on that framework after several years.
ajacksified 4y ago
Hi, I work at Inrupt (Tim's company.) Here's two recent examples: The BBC just announced that they're hosting Solid Pods for personal data, allowing users to control access to their information[1][2]. The government of Flanders is hosting Solid Pods for citizen data[3]. Solidproject.org is a community-led project, but I'd recommend trying out going through our docs at https://docs.inrupt.com https://docs.inrupt.com under "getting started" if you'd like to play around with it. Feel free to let me know if you have any issues or questions. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2022-10-social-tv-and-personal-data https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2022-10-social-tv-and-personal... [2] https://advanced-television.com/2022/10/27/bbc-social-tv-personal-data-project/ https://advanced-television.com/2022/10/27/bbc-social-tv-per... [3] https://inrupt.com/blog/digital-flanders-reconnects-citizens-with-their-data-through-inrupts-solid-server https://inrupt.com/blog/digital-flanders-reconnects-citizens...
- abeppu 4y ago
  Hi, thanks for responding. I already created a pod from the provider referenced in those docs (i.e. start.inrupt.com). It shows me a WebID url and a data storage url. What can one do with these? What can one do with a pod? The documentation says you can 'view' your pod, and links to some SDKS. I tried looking at the apps on this page, starting from the top: https://solidproject.org/apps https://solidproject.org/apps - MediaKraken: If you click the button indicating you want to use Solid to store stuff, it presents a box in which to put a URL to log in. It won't accept either of the two URLs given above. Following experiences with other apps, I sub in `https://login.inrupt.com https://login.inrupt.com`. I can pass through the login page at inrupt, but the redirect brings me to an error page. I can repeat this loop ad infinitum. - Penny: presents a box in which to put a URL to login. I can't log in with either of the URLs listed above, but it present a modal suggesting I try using `login.inrupt.com` instead. After a couple tries, I can get in to browse and see that I have no content. Yay. - Solid IDE: I get a 404 - Solid File Manager: After trying Penny, I know to enter https://login.inrupt.com https://login.inrupt.com in the login box. I can again browse my lack of data. - Pod Pro (an IDE for editing pods). I can log in and see that there's basically nothing to edit. I have no contacts, but the files they would presumably eventually go in have some markup which I can mess up. So far, I've yet to encounter an app that actually seems to do anything useful. Upon creating my pod I was shown 2 URLs and it turns out that none of the apps I encountered will accept them for anything. I'd love for this to be a vibrant ecosystem of actually useful stuff. But so far it seems like an empty room that's awkward to get into. I think my new pod will be as neglected as my urbit planet, and for the same reasons. Years ago I remember talking to someone about whether hadoop/mapreduce could help address some problem they were encountering -- but they had neither the data collection infrastructure or data analysis knowledge. It's not that mapreduce wasn't a good tool, but to him of course a framework that can run jobs he doesn't have and doesn't know how to write on data he doesn't yet have was pointless. A framework can need a lot of enabling conditions to be useful. I'm not sure what those are for Solid.
  - notjoemama 4y ago
    I just spent some time reading about it and visiting the same links while finding some of the same problems. It sounds interesting but I can't figure out what it "should" be used for. I can imagine this replacing existing data stores but it looks like an over complication to me, initially. If I imagine Facebook backed by Solid pods, well if any social media site is web based, can't they just scrape my data and send it to their server if I plug my pod into their system and allow access? Because they can do that for anyone else that signs up, wouldn't it just be a veneer over me "controlling access to my data"? The only benefit I can see is having a unified consistent data structure for combining information from different sources, an HTML standard for data. Ah, I've got it. This is what I was searching for to say. After reading their site I can't figure out what problem these solid pod solves and I also don't know how it solves it. It looks like neat tech that I would want to play with but that's as far as I can get after about 20 minutes of being introduced to it.
pornel 4y ago
It sucks that web3 marketing has hijacked the concept of decentralisation. Suddenly privately hosted data, federation, WoT, or P2P don't count as decentralised if there isn't any blockchain involved with a token to sell. They've rebranded private keys as "wallets" and act as if cryptography couldn't be done without transferring some Monopoly money at the same time.
- seibelj 4y ago
  Monopoly money does prevent spam. In decentralized networks preventing people from DDOSing the network becomes extremely important and very difficult.
  - pornel 4y ago
    That doesn't work nearly as well as you'd expect. Spammers have money. For them it's merely a cost of doing business and they'll spam as long as there's positive ROI. For something like politically-motivated disinfo on Twitter there are millions of dollars bankrolled. OTOH any non-zero cost is off-putting for regular users and stifles growth of services. Twitter has upset its top users by trying to change $8! Then there are flash loans that let you have any amount of wealth in the web3 world for only a tiny fraction of the price. It keeps popping "DeFi" services that naively assumed nobody would risk a fortune to attack them, but there's a fortune-for-hire service! Anyway, the real-world web has used phone numbers as proof of small amount of money. There are CC checks for bigger amounts. Then there's web of trust which is a pre-web3 word for "staking", except using reputation instead of Monopoly money. Mastodon instances for example ban other instances from federation if they don't police spam/abuse enough, so every server admin is motivated to fight it locally, while the system as a whole remains decentralised.
ocdtrekkie 4y ago
I think Solid is an awful idea that gets a ton of media coverage solely because Tim is behind it. It still has you giving arbitrary servers access to your data, rather than keeping the apps under your control as well. I think the only way you end up with really liking Solid is if you nearly paradoxically care about user freedom but really hate open source software and want to ensure you control your app code.
- omnimus 4y ago
  You can keep apps under your control. What are you talking about? It also means you share only part of you data if you need to do that at all. It gives users so much more control than in current situation.
  - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
    Why does Solid not let you run the apps on the server with your data?
    - Vinnl 4y ago
      You can do that, if you want. It just gives you the option to not do that.

by abeppu 4y ago

nr2x 4y ago

Why not both?

wmf 4y ago

Solid is probably not going to happen and it does give TimBL the appearance of a conflict of interest, but if you can put that aside his point stands.

krapp 4y ago
It stands either way. One can have a conflict of interest, or even be a hypocrite, and still be correct.
abeppu 4y ago
I don't think there's a 'conflict of interest' here; he has a startup, was talking at a web conference, and expressed an opinion about the landscape. I don't take issue with his points about web3. I would like to see _something_ that moves towards decentralization (or at least weaker centralization / greater portability), and if it's not Solid, I hope something else will step into that gap. But I am genuinely confused why there's not at least _something_ useful built on that framework after several years.

ajacksified 4y ago

Hi, I work at Inrupt (Tim's company.) Here's two recent examples: The BBC just announced that they're hosting Solid Pods for personal data, allowing users to control access to their information[1][2]. The government of Flanders is hosting Solid Pods for citizen data[3]. Solidproject.org is a community-led project, but I'd recommend trying out going through our docs at https://docs.inrupt.com https://docs.inrupt.com under "getting started" if you'd like to play around with it. Feel free to let me know if you have any issues or questions. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2022-10-social-tv-and-personal-data https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2022-10-social-tv-and-personal... [2] https://advanced-television.com/2022/10/27/bbc-social-tv-personal-data-project/ https://advanced-television.com/2022/10/27/bbc-social-tv-per... [3] https://inrupt.com/blog/digital-flanders-reconnects-citizens-with-their-data-through-inrupts-solid-server https://inrupt.com/blog/digital-flanders-reconnects-citizens...

abeppu 4y ago
Hi, thanks for responding. I already created a pod from the provider referenced in those docs (i.e. start.inrupt.com). It shows me a WebID url and a data storage url. What can one do with these? What can one do with a pod? The documentation says you can 'view' your pod, and links to some SDKS. I tried looking at the apps on this page, starting from the top: https://solidproject.org/apps https://solidproject.org/apps - MediaKraken: If you click the button indicating you want to use Solid to store stuff, it presents a box in which to put a URL to log in. It won't accept either of the two URLs given above. Following experiences with other apps, I sub in `https://login.inrupt.com https://login.inrupt.com`. I can pass through the login page at inrupt, but the redirect brings me to an error page. I can repeat this loop ad infinitum. - Penny: presents a box in which to put a URL to login. I can't log in with either of the URLs listed above, but it present a modal suggesting I try using `login.inrupt.com` instead. After a couple tries, I can get in to browse and see that I have no content. Yay. - Solid IDE: I get a 404 - Solid File Manager: After trying Penny, I know to enter https://login.inrupt.com https://login.inrupt.com in the login box. I can again browse my lack of data. - Pod Pro (an IDE for editing pods). I can log in and see that there's basically nothing to edit. I have no contacts, but the files they would presumably eventually go in have some markup which I can mess up. So far, I've yet to encounter an app that actually seems to do anything useful. Upon creating my pod I was shown 2 URLs and it turns out that none of the apps I encountered will accept them for anything. I'd love for this to be a vibrant ecosystem of actually useful stuff. But so far it seems like an empty room that's awkward to get into. I think my new pod will be as neglected as my urbit planet, and for the same reasons. Years ago I remember talking to someone about whether hadoop/mapreduce could help address some problem they were encountering -- but they had neither the data collection infrastructure or data analysis knowledge. It's not that mapreduce wasn't a good tool, but to him of course a framework that can run jobs he doesn't have and doesn't know how to write on data he doesn't yet have was pointless. A framework can need a lot of enabling conditions to be useful. I'm not sure what those are for Solid.
- notjoemama 4y ago
  I just spent some time reading about it and visiting the same links while finding some of the same problems. It sounds interesting but I can't figure out what it "should" be used for. I can imagine this replacing existing data stores but it looks like an over complication to me, initially. If I imagine Facebook backed by Solid pods, well if any social media site is web based, can't they just scrape my data and send it to their server if I plug my pod into their system and allow access? Because they can do that for anyone else that signs up, wouldn't it just be a veneer over me "controlling access to my data"? The only benefit I can see is having a unified consistent data structure for combining information from different sources, an HTML standard for data. Ah, I've got it. This is what I was searching for to say. After reading their site I can't figure out what problem these solid pod solves and I also don't know how it solves it. It looks like neat tech that I would want to play with but that's as far as I can get after about 20 minutes of being introduced to it.

pornel 4y ago

It sucks that web3 marketing has hijacked the concept of decentralisation. Suddenly privately hosted data, federation, WoT, or P2P don't count as decentralised if there isn't any blockchain involved with a token to sell. They've rebranded private keys as "wallets" and act as if cryptography couldn't be done without transferring some Monopoly money at the same time.

seibelj 4y ago
Monopoly money does prevent spam. In decentralized networks preventing people from DDOSing the network becomes extremely important and very difficult.
- pornel 4y ago
  That doesn't work nearly as well as you'd expect. Spammers have money. For them it's merely a cost of doing business and they'll spam as long as there's positive ROI. For something like politically-motivated disinfo on Twitter there are millions of dollars bankrolled. OTOH any non-zero cost is off-putting for regular users and stifles growth of services. Twitter has upset its top users by trying to change $8! Then there are flash loans that let you have any amount of wealth in the web3 world for only a tiny fraction of the price. It keeps popping "DeFi" services that naively assumed nobody would risk a fortune to attack them, but there's a fortune-for-hire service! Anyway, the real-world web has used phone numbers as proof of small amount of money. There are CC checks for bigger amounts. Then there's web of trust which is a pre-web3 word for "staking", except using reputation instead of Monopoly money. Mastodon instances for example ban other instances from federation if they don't police spam/abuse enough, so every server admin is motivated to fight it locally, while the system as a whole remains decentralised.

ocdtrekkie 4y ago

I think Solid is an awful idea that gets a ton of media coverage solely because Tim is behind it. It still has you giving arbitrary servers access to your data, rather than keeping the apps under your control as well. I think the only way you end up with really liking Solid is if you nearly paradoxically care about user freedom but really hate open source software and want to ensure you control your app code.

omnimus 4y ago
You can keep apps under your control. What are you talking about? It also means you share only part of you data if you need to do that at all. It gives users so much more control than in current situation.
- ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  Why does Solid not let you run the apps on the server with your data?
  - Vinnl 4y ago
    You can do that, if you want. It just gives you the option to not do that.