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Saying Singal "obviously" operates in good faith is an exaggeration. Michael Hobbes on Twitter has a few threads regarding Singal where he shows how Singal like

Saying Singal "obviously" operates in good faith is an exaggeration. Michael Hobbes on Twitter has a few threads regarding Singal where he shows how Singal likes to move the goalposts and accuse people of being "irresponsible" for making straightforwardly true claims (even ones that are supported by his own evidence). [ https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3ARottenInDenmark%20jesse&f=top https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3ARottenInDenmark%20jesse&... ]

mustache_kimono 4y ago
We can go pretty deep in the weeds in a thread that is AFAIK flagged and dead. > Saying Singal "obviously" operates in good faith is an exaggeration. From what I've heard and read of Jesse's, he seems to take great pains to be honest and fair. He seems to me to obviously be operating in good faith. Or as I would expect a curious, thoughtful journalist to act. But, yes, you and others may come to other conclusions. And, unfortunately, my experiences re: Hobbes's journalism have not been as glowing. They've frankly been disappointing. Hobbes seems to lack the very compassion and empathy Singal seems to obviously have. Hobbes tends to paint what seem to me to be good-faith disagreements as grand moral violations. But I may need to see more and maybe I'm mistaken? > Singal likes to move the goalposts and accuse people of being "irresponsible" for making straightforwardly true claims I think you need to be more specific re: this claim. Unsurprisingly, a link to all the subtweets someone has made about Jesse Singal isn't very helpful.
- a_shovel 4y ago
  The word "seems" is kinda the crux of the issue here. Singal has the tone of a curious, thoughtful jouralist who enters into research with no pre-established biases, and Hobbes has the tone of a guy who gets into Twitter arguments. The problem is that tone is not important, what's true is important. You can't determinte the truth just through the tone of the person communicating with you. A tone of thoughtful neutrality doesn't make something true, and a tone of belligerence doesn't indicate a lie. I discussed the example I was referencing in my response to ggreer. Here's a link to the twitter thread, for clarification: https://twitter.com/RottenInDenmark/status/1582092473736007680 https://twitter.com/RottenInDenmark/status/15820924737360076... I'd like to see an example of what you mean regarding Hobbes. I think that'd help me a lot to understand your position.
  - mustache_kimono 4y ago
    Theres a lot to mine here, but I'm really not going to be the one who gets in a tiff with you about this. I think you need to step away from the keyboard, dude.
    - a_shovel 4y ago
      Okay, that's just rude.
ggreer 4y ago
I'm pretty sure it's Hobbes who is acting in bad faith. Most of his links are to things that don't support his claims. For example, he'll claim that puberty blockers are completely reversible, but link to an NHS site that says some long term effects are unknown[1], and though GIDS claims the physical effects are reversible, GIDS was shut down due safety issues.[2] Hobbes also accused Jesse of recruiting detransitioners from a transphobic website[3][4], but the site in question only allows females to join, so Jesse couldn't have used that site to find the people he interviewed for his article. Lastly, Hobbes blocks his opponents, then screenshots their tweets and argues against them. This makes it much harder for his targets to respond to him and correct the record. It really seems like he doesn't care about what's true, just what he can get others to believe. 1. https://twitter.com/RottenInDenmark/status/1582093191008092160 https://twitter.com/RottenInDenmark/status/15820931910080921... 2. https://web.archive.org/web/20220728150640/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1ed2bea-0e63-11ed-93cf-b011fa7fe86b?shareToken=118eb347a058898a43745561e900a800 https://web.archive.org/web/20220728150640/https://www.theti... 3. https://archive.ph/cl9U8 https://archive.ph/cl9U8 4. https://kyschevers.medium.com/telling-the-whole-story-a-closer-look-at-the-detrans-women-in-when-children-say-theyre-69f80dcb209a https://kyschevers.medium.com/telling-the-whole-story-a-clos...
- DanBC 4y ago
  The unsafeness of the Tavistock clinic had nothing to do with puberty blockers - Tavi didn't prescribe[1] any puberty blockers to any child. And while the clinic provided by Tavistock is closing there will be many other clinics opening. Provision of gender affirming care to children is being expanded. [1] This is the big problem with threads like these. You can just lie and no-one knows any different because there's so much disinformation being spread. You shouldn't spread disinformation, and you should feel bad about doing so. The fact that you don't understand the basics (that Tavistock didn't do any prescribing) but you feel confident enough to comment is peak fucking HN. Bunch of dunning kruger cunts.
  - wrongo 4y ago
    Yes they did - and have published on this, for example: https://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0243894 https://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0243894

mustache_kimono 4y ago

We can go pretty deep in the weeds in a thread that is AFAIK flagged and dead. > Saying Singal "obviously" operates in good faith is an exaggeration. From what I've heard and read of Jesse's, he seems to take great pains to be honest and fair. He seems to me to obviously be operating in good faith. Or as I would expect a curious, thoughtful journalist to act. But, yes, you and others may come to other conclusions. And, unfortunately, my experiences re: Hobbes's journalism have not been as glowing. They've frankly been disappointing. Hobbes seems to lack the very compassion and empathy Singal seems to obviously have. Hobbes tends to paint what seem to me to be good-faith disagreements as grand moral violations. But I may need to see more and maybe I'm mistaken? > Singal likes to move the goalposts and accuse people of being "irresponsible" for making straightforwardly true claims I think you need to be more specific re: this claim. Unsurprisingly, a link to all the subtweets someone has made about Jesse Singal isn't very helpful.

a_shovel 4y ago
The word "seems" is kinda the crux of the issue here. Singal has the tone of a curious, thoughtful jouralist who enters into research with no pre-established biases, and Hobbes has the tone of a guy who gets into Twitter arguments. The problem is that tone is not important, what's true is important. You can't determinte the truth just through the tone of the person communicating with you. A tone of thoughtful neutrality doesn't make something true, and a tone of belligerence doesn't indicate a lie. I discussed the example I was referencing in my response to ggreer. Here's a link to the twitter thread, for clarification: https://twitter.com/RottenInDenmark/status/1582092473736007680 https://twitter.com/RottenInDenmark/status/15820924737360076... I'd like to see an example of what you mean regarding Hobbes. I think that'd help me a lot to understand your position.
- mustache_kimono 4y ago
  Theres a lot to mine here, but I'm really not going to be the one who gets in a tiff with you about this. I think you need to step away from the keyboard, dude.
  - a_shovel 4y ago
    Okay, that's just rude.

ggreer 4y ago

I'm pretty sure it's Hobbes who is acting in bad faith. Most of his links are to things that don't support his claims. For example, he'll claim that puberty blockers are completely reversible, but link to an NHS site that says some long term effects are unknown[1], and though GIDS claims the physical effects are reversible, GIDS was shut down due safety issues.[2] Hobbes also accused Jesse of recruiting detransitioners from a transphobic website[3][4], but the site in question only allows females to join, so Jesse couldn't have used that site to find the people he interviewed for his article. Lastly, Hobbes blocks his opponents, then screenshots their tweets and argues against them. This makes it much harder for his targets to respond to him and correct the record. It really seems like he doesn't care about what's true, just what he can get others to believe. 1. https://twitter.com/RottenInDenmark/status/1582093191008092160 https://twitter.com/RottenInDenmark/status/15820931910080921... 2. https://web.archive.org/web/20220728150640/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1ed2bea-0e63-11ed-93cf-b011fa7fe86b?shareToken=118eb347a058898a43745561e900a800 https://web.archive.org/web/20220728150640/https://www.theti... 3. https://archive.ph/cl9U8 https://archive.ph/cl9U8 4. https://kyschevers.medium.com/telling-the-whole-story-a-closer-look-at-the-detrans-women-in-when-children-say-theyre-69f80dcb209a https://kyschevers.medium.com/telling-the-whole-story-a-clos...

DanBC 4y ago
The unsafeness of the Tavistock clinic had nothing to do with puberty blockers - Tavi didn't prescribe[1] any puberty blockers to any child. And while the clinic provided by Tavistock is closing there will be many other clinics opening. Provision of gender affirming care to children is being expanded. [1] This is the big problem with threads like these. You can just lie and no-one knows any different because there's so much disinformation being spread. You shouldn't spread disinformation, and you should feel bad about doing so. The fact that you don't understand the basics (that Tavistock didn't do any prescribing) but you feel confident enough to comment is peak fucking HN. Bunch of dunning kruger cunts.
- wrongo 4y ago
  Yes they did - and have published on this, for example: https://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0243894 https://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0243894