5 ms·

Then stop being employees. Jesus Christ, you people take those massive salaried yet act like little children throwing tantrums because you fear your boss may no

Then stop being employees. Jesus Christ, you people take those massive salaried yet act like little children throwing tantrums because you fear your boss may not coddle you as much.

orange_joe 4y ago
Why is it the entrepreneur’s moral right to seek the most for themselves, but when employees do so you act like they’re children.
- luckylion 4y ago
  Everybody does it. But many consider one side to be immoral while doing it.
  - orange_joe 4y ago
    Sure, but there is an actual moral distinction between seeking the most by endangering the livelihoods of ~7K-10k(the number of employees, dependents + indirectly supported workers) and seeking the most by ensuring the worlds wealthiest human can only remain in the top 10 wealthiest humans. If the workers really push him, he might only have a hundred billion instead of hundreds. Tech workers are well paid, but their bosses have the wealth of kings.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
    Elon Musk isn’t going to be kicked out of the country he’s settled down in if he loses his Twitter job. Elon Musk isn’t going to lose his healthcare, his livelihood, his means of housing and feeding himself, just as the winter holidays are about to begin in the United States. Yes I think it’s immoral to put a person with a visa in a situation where they risk deportation unless they get hired just when hiring is slow, not just because of the job market but because other hiring managers are literally spending time with their family.
    - orange_joe 4y ago
      I don’t actually disagree with you, I was just responding specifically to that one person.
  - _vertigo 4y ago
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think a fair number of people think CEOs and entrepreneurs are immoral for acting in a self-serving, self-enriching manner, and a fair number of people think employees are immoral doing so.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      I see the moral point pretty much exclusively brought up against CEOs, managers etc, and virtually never against employees. Your (then ex-) boss might be angry that you've leaving because you've gotten a better offer, but barely anyone else will judge you (very rare cases exist, I'm sure, but they're rare). Everyone is optimizing their personal outcome, be it the CEO firing people, people quitting their jobs to work elsewhere, people quitting their jobs to live off of benefits, people having children early, or having children late, it's what we all do: look out for what's best for us. I find that totally okay, but I prefer to be honest about it, and don't pretend that it's not perfectly normal, or that people aren't doing it.
      - kemayo 4y ago
        I think the general take is that the higher you are up the money/power hierarchy the more strictly you should be judged for your choices, because acting in a self-enriching way becomes less and less necessary. An almost incomprehensibly rich person like Musk should be given less leeway for acting in a grasping manner. In a sense it's the inverse of the "it's moral to steal bread to feed your family" argument.
        luckylion 4y ago
        I agree. You have more options and fewer constraints the higher up you go, but I think that also applies to (most) Twitter/BigTech employees. A good chunk of those fired will be millionaires themselves, they're far from worrying about how to feed their families. Nobody has to be there to survive, everyone is there willingly because they saw it as the most advantageous place to work, and they'd switch to a different company tomorrow if they got the right offer. Loyalty is a term from a different era.
FormerBandmate 4y ago
You’re right, everyone should just completely uproot their lives for the hell of it and start completely untested startups with no safety net whenever their boss cracks down, instead of justify complaining about his insanity
protoc 4y ago
The crazy part is taking the huge salary then demanding your employer take on some social justice cause that they have been neutral on or actually already accommodating on.
- socialismisok 4y ago
  It's not crazy at all. If you are a worker, you are the one actually making the company productive. If the majority of workers want their company to do a thing, that company should listen.
  - milosmns 4y ago
    I see the username, but I still want to ask... how would your ideal company deal with a situation where all employees want to run the business in the ground?
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      Let's hope that's what happens to Twitter!
    - socialismisok 4y ago
      I'm a strong believer in workers cooperatives and democratic organization. Usually, people don't want to run their livelihood into the ground, but sometimes they make errors. (Just like executives, if Amazon games and stadia are any indication.)
      - megaman821 4y ago
        People are absolutely free to do those things right now. There are tens of millions of people with those sentiments. Why don't we see more attempted co-ops?
        socialismisok 4y ago
        So, we have some giant coops out there. Some making billions in revenue. But in the US it's really not well supported. If you want to found an LLC you click a few buttons on a form online and talk to any lawyer. If you want to found a co-op, you generally have to file the paperwork in person or via the mail. No one in the municipal government will help, because they don't know anything except LLCs. You'll need to find a lawyer who can draft not only the articles of incorporation, but also can advise on the issuing of shares, democratic operation, and how new members can join. Because profits are controlled by the workers, capitalistic investors won't know what to do with you, so you'll need to put in extra effort to find investors who are willing to be paid but not be made owners (or not more than any workers). It's a high, high initial cost. But once it's going it can be incredibly self sustaining. Every dollar of profit ends up back in the pockets of the people working there, equally. Or they can collectively choose to use that profit to expand.
wellpast 4y ago
This is the story of our industry. We are so lucky and don't even know it. I've been privileged to pull substantial salary and equity outcomes at various tech groups with "top tier" engineers who get away with murder because there are literally no stakes in the job performance. If you are approximately 'smart' and get a minimal amount of work done you can get away with murder. I've gotten junior engineers jobs in this industry, and when I check back in on some of them they are like yeah I work 1 hour a day and make well into six figures. And managers and bosses are terrified of asking for any outcomes lest they lose and have to try to rehire.
mc32 4y ago
It's funny how the most privileged act the most spoiled. Imagine steel plant workers or car manufacturing jobs. Demand goes down? So does your job --union or not. WallStreet is used to the ups and downs (they are somewhat comparable compensation-wise), and it's a way of life. You win big and you lose from time time. In tech you have some people who think it's their birthright to have good jobs with good pay and benefits and never have to go through a downturn.
Technetium 4y ago
This belligerently screams "entitled". Maybe you should read this: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Then stop being employees. Jesus Christ, you people take those massive salaried yet act like little children throwing tantrums because you fear your boss may not coddle you as much.

orange_joe 4y ago

Why is it the entrepreneur’s moral right to seek the most for themselves, but when employees do so you act like they’re children.

luckylion 4y ago
Everybody does it. But many consider one side to be immoral while doing it.
- orange_joe 4y ago
  Sure, but there is an actual moral distinction between seeking the most by endangering the livelihoods of ~7K-10k(the number of employees, dependents + indirectly supported workers) and seeking the most by ensuring the worlds wealthiest human can only remain in the top 10 wealthiest humans. If the workers really push him, he might only have a hundred billion instead of hundreds. Tech workers are well paid, but their bosses have the wealth of kings.
- SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
  Elon Musk isn’t going to be kicked out of the country he’s settled down in if he loses his Twitter job. Elon Musk isn’t going to lose his healthcare, his livelihood, his means of housing and feeding himself, just as the winter holidays are about to begin in the United States. Yes I think it’s immoral to put a person with a visa in a situation where they risk deportation unless they get hired just when hiring is slow, not just because of the job market but because other hiring managers are literally spending time with their family.
  - orange_joe 4y ago
    I don’t actually disagree with you, I was just responding specifically to that one person.
- _vertigo 4y ago
  Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think a fair number of people think CEOs and entrepreneurs are immoral for acting in a self-serving, self-enriching manner, and a fair number of people think employees are immoral doing so.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    I see the moral point pretty much exclusively brought up against CEOs, managers etc, and virtually never against employees. Your (then ex-) boss might be angry that you've leaving because you've gotten a better offer, but barely anyone else will judge you (very rare cases exist, I'm sure, but they're rare). Everyone is optimizing their personal outcome, be it the CEO firing people, people quitting their jobs to work elsewhere, people quitting their jobs to live off of benefits, people having children early, or having children late, it's what we all do: look out for what's best for us. I find that totally okay, but I prefer to be honest about it, and don't pretend that it's not perfectly normal, or that people aren't doing it.
    - kemayo 4y ago
      I think the general take is that the higher you are up the money/power hierarchy the more strictly you should be judged for your choices, because acting in a self-enriching way becomes less and less necessary. An almost incomprehensibly rich person like Musk should be given less leeway for acting in a grasping manner. In a sense it's the inverse of the "it's moral to steal bread to feed your family" argument.
      - luckylion 4y ago
        I agree. You have more options and fewer constraints the higher up you go, but I think that also applies to (most) Twitter/BigTech employees. A good chunk of those fired will be millionaires themselves, they're far from worrying about how to feed their families. Nobody has to be there to survive, everyone is there willingly because they saw it as the most advantageous place to work, and they'd switch to a different company tomorrow if they got the right offer. Loyalty is a term from a different era.

FormerBandmate 4y ago

You’re right, everyone should just completely uproot their lives for the hell of it and start completely untested startups with no safety net whenever their boss cracks down, instead of justify complaining about his insanity

protoc 4y ago

The crazy part is taking the huge salary then demanding your employer take on some social justice cause that they have been neutral on or actually already accommodating on.

socialismisok 4y ago
It's not crazy at all. If you are a worker, you are the one actually making the company productive. If the majority of workers want their company to do a thing, that company should listen.
- milosmns 4y ago
  I see the username, but I still want to ask... how would your ideal company deal with a situation where all employees want to run the business in the ground?
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    Let's hope that's what happens to Twitter!
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    I'm a strong believer in workers cooperatives and democratic organization. Usually, people don't want to run their livelihood into the ground, but sometimes they make errors. (Just like executives, if Amazon games and stadia are any indication.)
    - megaman821 4y ago
      People are absolutely free to do those things right now. There are tens of millions of people with those sentiments. Why don't we see more attempted co-ops?
      - socialismisok 4y ago
        So, we have some giant coops out there. Some making billions in revenue. But in the US it's really not well supported. If you want to found an LLC you click a few buttons on a form online and talk to any lawyer. If you want to found a co-op, you generally have to file the paperwork in person or via the mail. No one in the municipal government will help, because they don't know anything except LLCs. You'll need to find a lawyer who can draft not only the articles of incorporation, but also can advise on the issuing of shares, democratic operation, and how new members can join. Because profits are controlled by the workers, capitalistic investors won't know what to do with you, so you'll need to put in extra effort to find investors who are willing to be paid but not be made owners (or not more than any workers). It's a high, high initial cost. But once it's going it can be incredibly self sustaining. Every dollar of profit ends up back in the pockets of the people working there, equally. Or they can collectively choose to use that profit to expand.

wellpast 4y ago

This is the story of our industry. We are so lucky and don't even know it. I've been privileged to pull substantial salary and equity outcomes at various tech groups with "top tier" engineers who get away with murder because there are literally no stakes in the job performance. If you are approximately 'smart' and get a minimal amount of work done you can get away with murder. I've gotten junior engineers jobs in this industry, and when I check back in on some of them they are like yeah I work 1 hour a day and make well into six figures. And managers and bosses are terrified of asking for any outcomes lest they lose and have to try to rehire.

mc32 4y ago

It's funny how the most privileged act the most spoiled. Imagine steel plant workers or car manufacturing jobs. Demand goes down? So does your job --union or not. WallStreet is used to the ups and downs (they are somewhat comparable compensation-wise), and it's a way of life. You win big and you lose from time time. In tech you have some people who think it's their birthright to have good jobs with good pay and benefits and never have to go through a downturn.

Technetium 4y ago

This belligerently screams "entitled". Maybe you should read this: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html