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As a european though, it is absolutely crazy to see you can do this on a day by day basis. Here you would have at least 1 month, more likely 3 month, prior noti

As a european though, it is absolutely crazy to see you can do this on a day by day basis. Here you would have at least 1 month, more likely 3 month, prior notice to just being kicked out and having your accounts closed. You would also have to state a business reason for people who are employed as fixed staff. This gives people time to react to these kinds of things. Edit: Sorry, this refers to a comment further below: Also, comparing this to the pandemic is kinda crazy, isn't it? It's one thing to have a global scale event effecting the lives of billions and another of just buying a company for way tooo much because you wanted to make a dumb joke about smoking weed. America truely is a heartless, dystopian society...

PeterStuer 4y ago
In the European places you never get fired. They just make sure you quit.
philliphaydon 4y ago
Notice period is different from redundancy. Redundancy can mean you leave the day you’re made redundant. But they must give 30 days notice that redundancies are going to occur. In australia you cannot hire for a redundant role for I believe 9 months? If you do you must rehire the people made redundant or face big fines.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
OJFord 4y ago
> As a european though, it is absolutely crazy to see you can do this on a day by day basis. Here you would have at least 1 month, more likely 3 month, prior notice to just being kicked out and having your accounts closed. That's not true, there are minimum periods for which you must continue to pay the employee after notice their contract will be terminated, but I'd be surprised to learn of any country where it's illegal to prevent the employee having access to the building, confidential documents, etc. Cf. 'gardening leave'.
- mancerayder 4y ago
  That's only for very senior management positions and highly paid specialists, I've never seen gardening leave for even middle management, much less an engineer.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    We don't have to debate that though to agree that it demonstrates it's clearly not illegal.
- ghaff 4y ago
  >be surprised to learn of any country where it's illegal to prevent the employee having access to the building, confidential documents, etc. And I'd surprised if there were many countries where you couldn't prevent an employee who had been notified they were being let go from having access to systems, documents, etc.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    No I agree, that's exactly what I mean. You might still have to pay them, but if you don't want them to actually 'do work' for you that's fine. (It's your prerogative to have ever let them access any of that stuff to begin with, could've changed at any point during employment even if they still had a job.)
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Yup. I misread.
sweaty 4y ago
I'm surprised by these "generous" packages. Where I work in Europe, they must give me 3 months notice, my full salary is paid for 6 months, after which it's 75% up to 2 years, and if I still don't find anything new by then I get 50% indefinitely. I've worked in both the US and various EU countries, while the higher salary is certainly enticing, it's also a trap; When shit hits the fan, you better have been saving. In Europe, the money I make is money I get to really use, because the rest is taken care of for me.
- oytis 4y ago
  > When shit hits the fan, you better have been saving. In Europe, the money I make is money I get to really use, because the rest is taken care of for me. I wonder where this happy country is. In Germany it is already a common knowledge that relying on state for your retirement is a sure recipe for poverty in the old age.
  - onli 4y ago
    France would fit.
  - dopidopHN 4y ago
    It’s probably France
  - patates 4y ago
    > In Germany it is already a common knowledge that relying on state for your retirement is a sure recipe for poverty in the old age. Is it? I'm living in Germany since so many years and nobody told me this. They send me estimates about the money I'd be getting when retiring regularly, and while it'd mean downsizing, I'd not be poor with the amounts named.
    - hankerito 4y ago
      Assuming you are somewhere in IT and earn above the average, you will be okay-ish. People with lower incomes will benefit less. But if you look at that receipt and consider inflation, the extreme rise in rent in Germany, etc and all of that over maybe 20-30 years from you ending your career. It becomes less. There are adjustments for inflation, but still. These high pension values are also quite sure to be unsustainable for the government, as the workforce shrinks quite dramatically and people still get older. Generally, people are advised to put some money for retirement on the side, if they can. If you are in a position to put some money aside probably try to do some research. "Geldanlage für Faule" by Sina Groß is a very down to earth starting place.
saiya-jin 4y ago
Every coin has 2 sides - yes we have this additional security (which I love, just like everybody else), but we pay for it. Much lower salaries, companies not so agile, so they are hardly world leaders. You simply can't get compensation like those folks had/have in Europe, not as perm employee on 100%, more like 25-50% of it. Its actually great, skilled people can choose their priorities and how they want to setup their lives and career (stupid immigration policies and bad stuff coming out of it notwithstanding). I prefer something in between - ie Switzerland. Salaries higher, taxation lower, some middle ground on social security - ie easy to fire people, usual 3 months notice by law, but social system will give you 70% of your salary (up to an OK limit) for first year, you just need to keep doing the job hunt. It means you are not shit-scared if you take a mortgage for example, you don't need to have such a massive reserve like in US. And of course top of the world healthcare that cost very little (sickness, accidents are 0 if you work/retired) and cca free top notch education including best universities.
- arlcode 4y ago
  Europe has plenty of world leaders and very large cooperations. Just a few examples: Automotive manufacturers, Siemens, ASML, Several arms manufacturer, Airbus just to name a few. In addition, at least where I am, there are a million small companies (a few hundred employees) who deliver to customers around the world and, I assume, at market prices. It's a balance and probably one of the reasons we lost out on the digital race so far.
- bombcar 4y ago
  > you don't need to have such a massive reserve like in US If it makes you feel better people in the US don’t have massive reserves either. They just gamble and hit up credit if things hit the fan, even at FAANG salaries.
CWuestefeld 4y ago
> you would have at least 1 month, more likely 3 month, prior notice to just being kicked out At this point we have no idea what kind of severance package Twitter will be offering. I think it's likely that what you're saying is pretty much what they're going to wind up with - that is, Twitter will push them out the door, but with a check equivalent to something like 60 days of pay plus like continuation of benefits. Of course, I don't know this for sure, but neither do you, so there's no point in condemning or praising them yet.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
Many Americans think Europe is heartless because youth unemployment is allowed to get so high because businesses are paralyzed to protect those that have work and thus can never reorganize. Knee-capping the dynamism of youth is a current consensus of the European system.

PeterStuer 4y ago

In the European places you never get fired. They just make sure you quit.

philliphaydon 4y ago

Notice period is different from redundancy. Redundancy can mean you leave the day you’re made redundant. But they must give 30 days notice that redundancies are going to occur. In australia you cannot hire for a redundant role for I believe 9 months? If you do you must rehire the people made redundant or face big fines.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

OJFord 4y ago

> As a european though, it is absolutely crazy to see you can do this on a day by day basis. Here you would have at least 1 month, more likely 3 month, prior notice to just being kicked out and having your accounts closed. That's not true, there are minimum periods for which you must continue to pay the employee after notice their contract will be terminated, but I'd be surprised to learn of any country where it's illegal to prevent the employee having access to the building, confidential documents, etc. Cf. 'gardening leave'.

mancerayder 4y ago
That's only for very senior management positions and highly paid specialists, I've never seen gardening leave for even middle management, much less an engineer.
- OJFord 4y ago
  We don't have to debate that though to agree that it demonstrates it's clearly not illegal.
ghaff 4y ago
>be surprised to learn of any country where it's illegal to prevent the employee having access to the building, confidential documents, etc. And I'd surprised if there were many countries where you couldn't prevent an employee who had been notified they were being let go from having access to systems, documents, etc.
- OJFord 4y ago
  No I agree, that's exactly what I mean. You might still have to pay them, but if you don't want them to actually 'do work' for you that's fine. (It's your prerogative to have ever let them access any of that stuff to begin with, could've changed at any point during employment even if they still had a job.)
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Yup. I misread.

sweaty 4y ago

I'm surprised by these "generous" packages. Where I work in Europe, they must give me 3 months notice, my full salary is paid for 6 months, after which it's 75% up to 2 years, and if I still don't find anything new by then I get 50% indefinitely. I've worked in both the US and various EU countries, while the higher salary is certainly enticing, it's also a trap; When shit hits the fan, you better have been saving. In Europe, the money I make is money I get to really use, because the rest is taken care of for me.

oytis 4y ago
> When shit hits the fan, you better have been saving. In Europe, the money I make is money I get to really use, because the rest is taken care of for me. I wonder where this happy country is. In Germany it is already a common knowledge that relying on state for your retirement is a sure recipe for poverty in the old age.
- onli 4y ago
  France would fit.
- dopidopHN 4y ago
  It’s probably France
- patates 4y ago
  > In Germany it is already a common knowledge that relying on state for your retirement is a sure recipe for poverty in the old age. Is it? I'm living in Germany since so many years and nobody told me this. They send me estimates about the money I'd be getting when retiring regularly, and while it'd mean downsizing, I'd not be poor with the amounts named.
  - hankerito 4y ago
    Assuming you are somewhere in IT and earn above the average, you will be okay-ish. People with lower incomes will benefit less. But if you look at that receipt and consider inflation, the extreme rise in rent in Germany, etc and all of that over maybe 20-30 years from you ending your career. It becomes less. There are adjustments for inflation, but still. These high pension values are also quite sure to be unsustainable for the government, as the workforce shrinks quite dramatically and people still get older. Generally, people are advised to put some money for retirement on the side, if they can. If you are in a position to put some money aside probably try to do some research. "Geldanlage für Faule" by Sina Groß is a very down to earth starting place.

saiya-jin 4y ago

Every coin has 2 sides - yes we have this additional security (which I love, just like everybody else), but we pay for it. Much lower salaries, companies not so agile, so they are hardly world leaders. You simply can't get compensation like those folks had/have in Europe, not as perm employee on 100%, more like 25-50% of it. Its actually great, skilled people can choose their priorities and how they want to setup their lives and career (stupid immigration policies and bad stuff coming out of it notwithstanding). I prefer something in between - ie Switzerland. Salaries higher, taxation lower, some middle ground on social security - ie easy to fire people, usual 3 months notice by law, but social system will give you 70% of your salary (up to an OK limit) for first year, you just need to keep doing the job hunt. It means you are not shit-scared if you take a mortgage for example, you don't need to have such a massive reserve like in US. And of course top of the world healthcare that cost very little (sickness, accidents are 0 if you work/retired) and cca free top notch education including best universities.

arlcode 4y ago
Europe has plenty of world leaders and very large cooperations. Just a few examples: Automotive manufacturers, Siemens, ASML, Several arms manufacturer, Airbus just to name a few. In addition, at least where I am, there are a million small companies (a few hundred employees) who deliver to customers around the world and, I assume, at market prices. It's a balance and probably one of the reasons we lost out on the digital race so far.
bombcar 4y ago
> you don't need to have such a massive reserve like in US If it makes you feel better people in the US don’t have massive reserves either. They just gamble and hit up credit if things hit the fan, even at FAANG salaries.

CWuestefeld 4y ago

> you would have at least 1 month, more likely 3 month, prior notice to just being kicked out At this point we have no idea what kind of severance package Twitter will be offering. I think it's likely that what you're saying is pretty much what they're going to wind up with - that is, Twitter will push them out the door, but with a check equivalent to something like 60 days of pay plus like continuation of benefits. Of course, I don't know this for sure, but neither do you, so there's no point in condemning or praising them yet.

mensetmanusman 4y ago

Many Americans think Europe is heartless because youth unemployment is allowed to get so high because businesses are paralyzed to protect those that have work and thus can never reorganize. Knee-capping the dynamism of youth is a current consensus of the European system.