3 ms·

The key part of the scientific method is the hypothesis and then testing the hypothesis. The OODA loop doesn't have that. It's not the same thing.

aaronharnly 4y ago
I concur, though it’s fair to note that the PDSA loop / Deming cycle has an hypothesis embedded, in the form of a theory of action — “I hypothesize that changes X to the system/process will result in outcomes Y.” Not the same as inference to the best explanation, but not unrelated.
raydiatian 4y ago
> OODA loop doesn’t have that. Feels pretty 1:1 to me. Both work to define a model & state (shared observe), both seek to identify ways to improve the model and/or state (orient/hypothesize), both take real world action to secure those improvements (do/act/test), both have ongoing feedback. OODA may be more rapid and strategically oriented (haha), but they’re doubtless the same methodical approach at the end of the day. I claim it’s scientific method having multiple pen names simply because scientific method is older than PDSA & OODA from late ‘50s. If OODA loop came from Sun Tzu, I’d say it’s all OODA loop pen names.
- Naga 4y ago
  OODA loops might look superficially like the same concept, but that's hiding a lot of the complexity of it. The difference between the scientific method and OODA is that OODA is a framework for making decisions under extreme uncertainty. It's not just the feedback loop of continuous learning, but its about recognizing that your adversaries also have their own OODA loops and that if your loop operates faster than theirs, you have a distinct advantage. This implies both that you should make decision faster than your opponent, or that you should make your opponent make slower decisions (such as by causing confusion). Very powerful tool.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    Right - the most important thing about OODA is realising that OODA itself can be an anti-pattern, and really you should be aiming to attack the enemy's OODA, not worrying about your OODA so much. Has anyone else seen the animation of the two fists rhythmically striking each other at the same time, until one side accelerates their loop and strikes the enemy when they're not prepared? 'Shatter the enemy's cohesion and will to fight by getting inside their OODA loop' - that's the one-sentence summary of contemporary military thinking.
    - cosmojg 4y ago
      > Has anyone else seen the animation of the two fists rhythmically striking each other at the same time, until one side accelerates their loop and strikes the enemy when they're not prepared? Please come back and share this if you remember what it is or where to find it!
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  I think the difference is OODA informs your actions. You aren't 'testing' the enemy - you're acting yourself. (I've taught and applied OODA professionally.)
- Jtsummers 4y ago
  PDSA/PDCA are applied outside of combat (if we're comparing it to OODA) with training, exercise, and study. Learn what the aircraft can do and develop a new maneuver, practice the maneuver until it becomes automatic, then in combat with the OODA loop (tightened by training and practice) you apply the maneuver when it's appropriate to overcome your opponent. PDSA/PDCA can improve the OODA loop because it can inform how you train, but the OODA loop is not PDSA/PDCA.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

aaronharnly 4y ago

I concur, though it’s fair to note that the PDSA loop / Deming cycle has an hypothesis embedded, in the form of a theory of action — “I hypothesize that changes X to the system/process will result in outcomes Y.” Not the same as inference to the best explanation, but not unrelated.

raydiatian 4y ago

> OODA loop doesn’t have that. Feels pretty 1:1 to me. Both work to define a model & state (shared observe), both seek to identify ways to improve the model and/or state (orient/hypothesize), both take real world action to secure those improvements (do/act/test), both have ongoing feedback. OODA may be more rapid and strategically oriented (haha), but they’re doubtless the same methodical approach at the end of the day. I claim it’s scientific method having multiple pen names simply because scientific method is older than PDSA & OODA from late ‘50s. If OODA loop came from Sun Tzu, I’d say it’s all OODA loop pen names.

Naga 4y ago
OODA loops might look superficially like the same concept, but that's hiding a lot of the complexity of it. The difference between the scientific method and OODA is that OODA is a framework for making decisions under extreme uncertainty. It's not just the feedback loop of continuous learning, but its about recognizing that your adversaries also have their own OODA loops and that if your loop operates faster than theirs, you have a distinct advantage. This implies both that you should make decision faster than your opponent, or that you should make your opponent make slower decisions (such as by causing confusion). Very powerful tool.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Right - the most important thing about OODA is realising that OODA itself can be an anti-pattern, and really you should be aiming to attack the enemy's OODA, not worrying about your OODA so much. Has anyone else seen the animation of the two fists rhythmically striking each other at the same time, until one side accelerates their loop and strikes the enemy when they're not prepared? 'Shatter the enemy's cohesion and will to fight by getting inside their OODA loop' - that's the one-sentence summary of contemporary military thinking.
  - cosmojg 4y ago
    > Has anyone else seen the animation of the two fists rhythmically striking each other at the same time, until one side accelerates their loop and strikes the enemy when they're not prepared? Please come back and share this if you remember what it is or where to find it!
chrisseaton 4y ago
I think the difference is OODA informs your actions. You aren't 'testing' the enemy - you're acting yourself. (I've taught and applied OODA professionally.)
Jtsummers 4y ago
PDSA/PDCA are applied outside of combat (if we're comparing it to OODA) with training, exercise, and study. Learn what the aircraft can do and develop a new maneuver, practice the maneuver until it becomes automatic, then in combat with the OODA loop (tightened by training and practice) you apply the maneuver when it's appropriate to overcome your opponent. PDSA/PDCA can improve the OODA loop because it can inform how you train, but the OODA loop is not PDSA/PDCA.
deleted 4y ago
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