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Absolutely not, the principle is self-determination which means we keep the Falklands by a very clear margin.

by tyho 4y ago

GekkePrutser 4y ago
Most of these enclaves and foreign colonies haven't really been kept to support the locals though, but more as a power play. A remote base of operations and a statement to the world. I truly doubt Thatcher really cared about the couple thousand of remote inhabitants during the falklands war, but rather the prospect of losing a strategic remote base and losing face in the geopolitical arena (as well as at home obviously) Importing your own population into conquered territory and letting them vote is a dirty trick we don't accept from countries like Russia but using it as a justification ourselves undermines our legitimacy of that argument. The fact that these things happened a long time ago makes it a bit less of a statement but still it remains a double standard. The Crimean deportation of locals is also a long time ago but we still blame Russia for taking it over (and rightly so). I'm really happy to see governments finally admitting their mistakes like in this case. The Falklands, Diego Garcia, Gibraltar are all in very strategic places. Now, there is something to be said about protecting the Falklands as Argentina isn't the most stable country in the world, but would the Gibraltar population really be so much worse off if they were ruled by Spain? The hundreds of thousands of British that live in Spain clearly don't think so.
- WeylandYutani 4y ago
  The people in Gibraltar don't want to be Spanish. Forcing them could also be considered imperialism, no? The Netherlands still has a few Carribbean islands situated next to Venezuela. You break it you buy it.
- skissane 4y ago
  > Importing your own population into conquered territory and letting them vote is a dirty trick we don't accept from countries like Russia But isn't that exactly what the Europeans did in the US and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, even Argentina? Import new people, who vastly outnumber and outvote the descendants of the original inhabitants? (And not just Europeans – it is also what China did to Taiwan.) The fact that Russia's annexation of Crimea is only a few years old is a very large part of the challenge to its legitimacy. Similar events which happened 70, 100, 200, 300+ years ago, far fewer will seriously propose overturning them (indeed, the idea of doing so is liable to be condemned as "irredentism"). > but would the Gibraltar population really be so much worse off if they were ruled by Spain? Many people in Gibraltar are by heritage neither Spanish nor British. The UK imported a labour force – some Brits and Spaniards, but also very many Italians, Portuguese, Maltese, and North African Jews. Many of their descendants would rather be independent, but given that's unlikely to be an option, British rule is closer in practice to independence than Spanish rule would be – the UK, being much further away, is naturally going to be inclined to give them a great deal of autonomy over their internal affairs, Spain (whatever promises it might make to try to get it back) will inevitably desire to integrate it into the Spanish state and treat it as just another part of Spain.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > But isn't that exactly what the Europeans did in the US and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, even Argentina? Import new people, who vastly outnumber and outvote the descendants of the original inhabitants? This is an example of how something is good? These were some of the worst acts in history, and involved many, many, mass graves. > And not just Europeans – it is also what China did to Taiwan. Taiwan was invaded by the retreating ROC army. So this is what that army did to the Formosans, not what "China" did to "Taiwan.* Again: the current government of Taiwan were the people who brutally suppressed the Formosans, and took over their island. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_the_government_of_the_Republic_of_China_to_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_the_government_of_t... Indigenous Taiwanese make up 2% of the current population, and live in the mountains. > The fact that Russia's annexation of Crimea is only a few years old is a very large part of the challenge to its legitimacy. Crimea became part of the Soviet that corresponds to Ukraine under the Soviet Union in 1954, and its population was and is Russian speaking. There is no serious challenge to its legitimacy other than the fact that the US is going to use every opportunity to harass Russia and China it can, no matter the claim. Speaking of recent claims, The current Ukraine's claim to Crimea dates from 1995. Crimea hoped to be independent after the fall of the USSR, until: "In October 1993, the Crimean parliament established the post of president of Crimea. Tensions rose in 1994 with election of separatist leader Yury Meshkov as Crimean president. On 17 March 1995, the parliament of Ukraine abolished the Crimean constitution of 1992, all the laws and decrees contradicting those of Kyiv, and also removed Yuriy Meshkov, the then president of Crimea, along with the office itself."
    - skissane 4y ago
      > This is an example of how something is good? No. But it is evidence that people have different standards for more distant wrongs than more recent ones. Many Argentines think the UK should “give it back” the Falklands, but how many European-descended Argentines think Argentina should be “given back” to its original indigenous inhabitants? What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. > Taiwan was invaded by the retreating ROC army. The Qing dynasty ruled Taiwan from 1683 to 1895, and that is when Han Chinese colonisation started. The Europeans came before that - Chinese colonialism pushed out European colonialism, and Chinese colonialism was in turn displaced - for a period - by Japanese colonialism. But there were already very many Han Chinese in Taiwan before the defeat of Japan, or the flight of the KMT from the mainland.
- blibble 4y ago
  > would the Gibraltar population really be so much worse off if they were ruled by Spain? The hundreds of thousands of British that live in Spain clearly don't think so. the tens of thousands of that live in Gibraltar clearly do think so

Absolutely not, the principle is self-determination which means we keep the Falklands by a very clear margin.

by tyho 4y ago

Absolutely not, the principle is self-determination which means we keep the Falklands by a very clear margin.

Most of these enclaves and foreign colonies haven't really been kept to support the locals though, but more as a power play. A remote base of operations and a statement to the world. I truly doubt Thatcher really cared about the couple thousand of remote inhabitants during the falklands war, but rather the prospect of losing a strategic remote base and losing face in the geopolitical arena (as well as at home obviously) Importing your own population into conquered territory and letting them vote is a dirty trick we don't accept from countries like Russia but using it as a justification ourselves undermines our legitimacy of that argument. The fact that these things happened a long time ago makes it a bit less of a statement but still it remains a double standard. The Crimean deportation of locals is also a long time ago but we still blame Russia for taking it over (and rightly so). I'm really happy to see governments finally admitting their mistakes like in this case. The Falklands, Diego Garcia, Gibraltar are all in very strategic places. Now, there is something to be said about protecting the Falklands as Argentina isn't the most stable country in the world, but would the Gibraltar population really be so much worse off if they were ruled by Spain? The hundreds of thousands of British that live in Spain clearly don't think so.

WeylandYutani 4y ago
The people in Gibraltar don't want to be Spanish. Forcing them could also be considered imperialism, no? The Netherlands still has a few Carribbean islands situated next to Venezuela. You break it you buy it.
skissane 4y ago
> Importing your own population into conquered territory and letting them vote is a dirty trick we don't accept from countries like Russia But isn't that exactly what the Europeans did in the US and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, even Argentina? Import new people, who vastly outnumber and outvote the descendants of the original inhabitants? (And not just Europeans – it is also what China did to Taiwan.) The fact that Russia's annexation of Crimea is only a few years old is a very large part of the challenge to its legitimacy. Similar events which happened 70, 100, 200, 300+ years ago, far fewer will seriously propose overturning them (indeed, the idea of doing so is liable to be condemned as "irredentism"). > but would the Gibraltar population really be so much worse off if they were ruled by Spain? Many people in Gibraltar are by heritage neither Spanish nor British. The UK imported a labour force – some Brits and Spaniards, but also very many Italians, Portuguese, Maltese, and North African Jews. Many of their descendants would rather be independent, but given that's unlikely to be an option, British rule is closer in practice to independence than Spanish rule would be – the UK, being much further away, is naturally going to be inclined to give them a great deal of autonomy over their internal affairs, Spain (whatever promises it might make to try to get it back) will inevitably desire to integrate it into the Spanish state and treat it as just another part of Spain.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > But isn't that exactly what the Europeans did in the US and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, even Argentina? Import new people, who vastly outnumber and outvote the descendants of the original inhabitants? This is an example of how something is good? These were some of the worst acts in history, and involved many, many, mass graves. > And not just Europeans – it is also what China did to Taiwan. Taiwan was invaded by the retreating ROC army. So this is what that army did to the Formosans, not what "China" did to "Taiwan.* Again: the current government of Taiwan were the people who brutally suppressed the Formosans, and took over their island. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_the_government_of_the_Republic_of_China_to_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_the_government_of_t... Indigenous Taiwanese make up 2% of the current population, and live in the mountains. > The fact that Russia's annexation of Crimea is only a few years old is a very large part of the challenge to its legitimacy. Crimea became part of the Soviet that corresponds to Ukraine under the Soviet Union in 1954, and its population was and is Russian speaking. There is no serious challenge to its legitimacy other than the fact that the US is going to use every opportunity to harass Russia and China it can, no matter the claim. Speaking of recent claims, The current Ukraine's claim to Crimea dates from 1995. Crimea hoped to be independent after the fall of the USSR, until: "In October 1993, the Crimean parliament established the post of president of Crimea. Tensions rose in 1994 with election of separatist leader Yury Meshkov as Crimean president. On 17 March 1995, the parliament of Ukraine abolished the Crimean constitution of 1992, all the laws and decrees contradicting those of Kyiv, and also removed Yuriy Meshkov, the then president of Crimea, along with the office itself."
  - skissane 4y ago
    > This is an example of how something is good? No. But it is evidence that people have different standards for more distant wrongs than more recent ones. Many Argentines think the UK should “give it back” the Falklands, but how many European-descended Argentines think Argentina should be “given back” to its original indigenous inhabitants? What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. > Taiwan was invaded by the retreating ROC army. The Qing dynasty ruled Taiwan from 1683 to 1895, and that is when Han Chinese colonisation started. The Europeans came before that - Chinese colonialism pushed out European colonialism, and Chinese colonialism was in turn displaced - for a period - by Japanese colonialism. But there were already very many Han Chinese in Taiwan before the defeat of Japan, or the flight of the KMT from the mainland.
blibble 4y ago
> would the Gibraltar population really be so much worse off if they were ruled by Spain? The hundreds of thousands of British that live in Spain clearly don't think so. the tens of thousands of that live in Gibraltar clearly do think so