4 ms·

Pop! Here we go. Argentina has entered the chat. Claims over the Falkland Islands are likely getting dusted once again, right side of the Andes.

LatteLazy 4y ago
They get raised every time there is an Argentine election or political or economic crisis...
- pelagicAustral 4y ago
  Every fortnight then.
mytailorisrich 4y ago
Cases are very different and the outcome here has no bearing on the Falklands even if Argentina might try to claim otherwise.
tyho 4y ago
Absolutely not, the principle is self-determination which means we keep the Falklands by a very clear margin.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  Most of these enclaves and foreign colonies haven't really been kept to support the locals though, but more as a power play. A remote base of operations and a statement to the world. I truly doubt Thatcher really cared about the couple thousand of remote inhabitants during the falklands war, but rather the prospect of losing a strategic remote base and losing face in the geopolitical arena (as well as at home obviously) Importing your own population into conquered territory and letting them vote is a dirty trick we don't accept from countries like Russia but using it as a justification ourselves undermines our legitimacy of that argument. The fact that these things happened a long time ago makes it a bit less of a statement but still it remains a double standard. The Crimean deportation of locals is also a long time ago but we still blame Russia for taking it over (and rightly so). I'm really happy to see governments finally admitting their mistakes like in this case. The Falklands, Diego Garcia, Gibraltar are all in very strategic places. Now, there is something to be said about protecting the Falklands as Argentina isn't the most stable country in the world, but would the Gibraltar population really be so much worse off if they were ruled by Spain? The hundreds of thousands of British that live in Spain clearly don't think so.
  - WeylandYutani 4y ago
    The people in Gibraltar don't want to be Spanish. Forcing them could also be considered imperialism, no? The Netherlands still has a few Carribbean islands situated next to Venezuela. You break it you buy it.
  - skissane 4y ago
    > Importing your own population into conquered territory and letting them vote is a dirty trick we don't accept from countries like Russia But isn't that exactly what the Europeans did in the US and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, even Argentina? Import new people, who vastly outnumber and outvote the descendants of the original inhabitants? (And not just Europeans – it is also what China did to Taiwan.) The fact that Russia's annexation of Crimea is only a few years old is a very large part of the challenge to its legitimacy. Similar events which happened 70, 100, 200, 300+ years ago, far fewer will seriously propose overturning them (indeed, the idea of doing so is liable to be condemned as "irredentism"). > but would the Gibraltar population really be so much worse off if they were ruled by Spain? Many people in Gibraltar are by heritage neither Spanish nor British. The UK imported a labour force – some Brits and Spaniards, but also very many Italians, Portuguese, Maltese, and North African Jews. Many of their descendants would rather be independent, but given that's unlikely to be an option, British rule is closer in practice to independence than Spanish rule would be – the UK, being much further away, is naturally going to be inclined to give them a great deal of autonomy over their internal affairs, Spain (whatever promises it might make to try to get it back) will inevitably desire to integrate it into the Spanish state and treat it as just another part of Spain.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      > But isn't that exactly what the Europeans did in the US and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, even Argentina? Import new people, who vastly outnumber and outvote the descendants of the original inhabitants? This is an example of how something is good? These were some of the worst acts in history, and involved many, many, mass graves. > And not just Europeans – it is also what China did to Taiwan. Taiwan was invaded by the retreating ROC army. So this is what that army did to the Formosans, not what "China" did to "Taiwan.* Again: the current government of Taiwan were the people who brutally suppressed the Formosans, and took over their island. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_the_government_of_the_Republic_of_China_to_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_the_government_of_t... Indigenous Taiwanese make up 2% of the current population, and live in the mountains. > The fact that Russia's annexation of Crimea is only a few years old is a very large part of the challenge to its legitimacy. Crimea became part of the Soviet that corresponds to Ukraine under the Soviet Union in 1954, and its population was and is Russian speaking. There is no serious challenge to its legitimacy other than the fact that the US is going to use every opportunity to harass Russia and China it can, no matter the claim. Speaking of recent claims, The current Ukraine's claim to Crimea dates from 1995. Crimea hoped to be independent after the fall of the USSR, until: "In October 1993, the Crimean parliament established the post of president of Crimea. Tensions rose in 1994 with election of separatist leader Yury Meshkov as Crimean president. On 17 March 1995, the parliament of Ukraine abolished the Crimean constitution of 1992, all the laws and decrees contradicting those of Kyiv, and also removed Yuriy Meshkov, the then president of Crimea, along with the office itself."
iso1631 4y ago
Undemocratic countries do not like self determination. If the vast majority of people who were born and live in a region want to be an independent country, that's their call. That could be Scotland, Falklands, Catalonia, Northern Cyprus, Texas, Ceuta, Crimea, Tibet, Hong Kong, Quebec, Reunion, etc. If they want to be part of another country then it's still their call, but obviously the other country also has to agree. (I accept there's probably some discussion about how recent immigrants count, and the size or duration of the majority to make something change but the principal of self determination is one of the most basic rights people have)
- pelagicAustral 4y ago
  8% population increase since last census (2016). https://www.falklands.gov.fk/policy/2021-census/census https://www.falklands.gov.fk/policy/2021-census/census > Almost 70% of the population identifies as Falkland Islanders, British, or a combination of both. The diversity of national identities almost doubled compared to 2016, with 86 different nationalities counted, and more people identify as being a Falkland Islander in addition to their cultural background.
  - iso1631 4y ago
    Falklands is a clear example of the entire population wanting to keep the status quo[0], there's no movement to change that on the island - no groups campaigning for it etc. There's no "both sides" to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Falkland_Islands_sovereig... Gibraltar was the same, but then brexit came, so not sure if that has swung opinion but I don't think. In 2002 87% of the total registered to vote voted to remain the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gibraltar_sovereignty_ref... Catalonia probably wants independence (40% voted for it in 2017), and should have a decent referendum and debate with independence as an option, the travesty of the referendum just shows how undemocratic Spain is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_refe... New Caledonia on the other hand wants to retain the status quo, although not much. Maybe in 30 years time that will have changed, and there's certainly both valid sides of the conversation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_New_Caledonian_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_New_Caledonian_independen...

LatteLazy 4y ago

They get raised every time there is an Argentine election or political or economic crisis...

pelagicAustral 4y ago
Every fortnight then.

mytailorisrich 4y ago

Cases are very different and the outcome here has no bearing on the Falklands even if Argentina might try to claim otherwise.

tyho 4y ago

Absolutely not, the principle is self-determination which means we keep the Falklands by a very clear margin.

GekkePrutser 4y ago
Most of these enclaves and foreign colonies haven't really been kept to support the locals though, but more as a power play. A remote base of operations and a statement to the world. I truly doubt Thatcher really cared about the couple thousand of remote inhabitants during the falklands war, but rather the prospect of losing a strategic remote base and losing face in the geopolitical arena (as well as at home obviously) Importing your own population into conquered territory and letting them vote is a dirty trick we don't accept from countries like Russia but using it as a justification ourselves undermines our legitimacy of that argument. The fact that these things happened a long time ago makes it a bit less of a statement but still it remains a double standard. The Crimean deportation of locals is also a long time ago but we still blame Russia for taking it over (and rightly so). I'm really happy to see governments finally admitting their mistakes like in this case. The Falklands, Diego Garcia, Gibraltar are all in very strategic places. Now, there is something to be said about protecting the Falklands as Argentina isn't the most stable country in the world, but would the Gibraltar population really be so much worse off if they were ruled by Spain? The hundreds of thousands of British that live in Spain clearly don't think so.
- WeylandYutani 4y ago
  The people in Gibraltar don't want to be Spanish. Forcing them could also be considered imperialism, no? The Netherlands still has a few Carribbean islands situated next to Venezuela. You break it you buy it.
- skissane 4y ago
  > Importing your own population into conquered territory and letting them vote is a dirty trick we don't accept from countries like Russia But isn't that exactly what the Europeans did in the US and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, even Argentina? Import new people, who vastly outnumber and outvote the descendants of the original inhabitants? (And not just Europeans – it is also what China did to Taiwan.) The fact that Russia's annexation of Crimea is only a few years old is a very large part of the challenge to its legitimacy. Similar events which happened 70, 100, 200, 300+ years ago, far fewer will seriously propose overturning them (indeed, the idea of doing so is liable to be condemned as "irredentism"). > but would the Gibraltar population really be so much worse off if they were ruled by Spain? Many people in Gibraltar are by heritage neither Spanish nor British. The UK imported a labour force – some Brits and Spaniards, but also very many Italians, Portuguese, Maltese, and North African Jews. Many of their descendants would rather be independent, but given that's unlikely to be an option, British rule is closer in practice to independence than Spanish rule would be – the UK, being much further away, is naturally going to be inclined to give them a great deal of autonomy over their internal affairs, Spain (whatever promises it might make to try to get it back) will inevitably desire to integrate it into the Spanish state and treat it as just another part of Spain.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > But isn't that exactly what the Europeans did in the US and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, even Argentina? Import new people, who vastly outnumber and outvote the descendants of the original inhabitants? This is an example of how something is good? These were some of the worst acts in history, and involved many, many, mass graves. > And not just Europeans – it is also what China did to Taiwan. Taiwan was invaded by the retreating ROC army. So this is what that army did to the Formosans, not what "China" did to "Taiwan.* Again: the current government of Taiwan were the people who brutally suppressed the Formosans, and took over their island. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_the_government_of_the_Republic_of_China_to_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_the_government_of_t... Indigenous Taiwanese make up 2% of the current population, and live in the mountains. > The fact that Russia's annexation of Crimea is only a few years old is a very large part of the challenge to its legitimacy. Crimea became part of the Soviet that corresponds to Ukraine under the Soviet Union in 1954, and its population was and is Russian speaking. There is no serious challenge to its legitimacy other than the fact that the US is going to use every opportunity to harass Russia and China it can, no matter the claim. Speaking of recent claims, The current Ukraine's claim to Crimea dates from 1995. Crimea hoped to be independent after the fall of the USSR, until: "In October 1993, the Crimean parliament established the post of president of Crimea. Tensions rose in 1994 with election of separatist leader Yury Meshkov as Crimean president. On 17 March 1995, the parliament of Ukraine abolished the Crimean constitution of 1992, all the laws and decrees contradicting those of Kyiv, and also removed Yuriy Meshkov, the then president of Crimea, along with the office itself."

iso1631 4y ago

Undemocratic countries do not like self determination. If the vast majority of people who were born and live in a region want to be an independent country, that's their call. That could be Scotland, Falklands, Catalonia, Northern Cyprus, Texas, Ceuta, Crimea, Tibet, Hong Kong, Quebec, Reunion, etc. If they want to be part of another country then it's still their call, but obviously the other country also has to agree. (I accept there's probably some discussion about how recent immigrants count, and the size or duration of the majority to make something change but the principal of self determination is one of the most basic rights people have)

pelagicAustral 4y ago
8% population increase since last census (2016). https://www.falklands.gov.fk/policy/2021-census/census https://www.falklands.gov.fk/policy/2021-census/census > Almost 70% of the population identifies as Falkland Islanders, British, or a combination of both. The diversity of national identities almost doubled compared to 2016, with 86 different nationalities counted, and more people identify as being a Falkland Islander in addition to their cultural background.
- iso1631 4y ago
  Falklands is a clear example of the entire population wanting to keep the status quo[0], there's no movement to change that on the island - no groups campaigning for it etc. There's no "both sides" to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Falkland_Islands_sovereig... Gibraltar was the same, but then brexit came, so not sure if that has swung opinion but I don't think. In 2002 87% of the total registered to vote voted to remain the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gibraltar_sovereignty_ref... Catalonia probably wants independence (40% voted for it in 2017), and should have a decent referendum and debate with independence as an option, the travesty of the referendum just shows how undemocratic Spain is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_refe... New Caledonia on the other hand wants to retain the status quo, although not much. Maybe in 30 years time that will have changed, and there's certainly both valid sides of the conversation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_New_Caledonian_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_New_Caledonian_independen...