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I've been hearing similar arguments from lisp advocates for decades but lisp is still a tiny niche in the programming world. Is this because programmers are jus

I've been hearing similar arguments from lisp advocates for decades but lisp is still a tiny niche in the programming world. Is this because programmers are just slow to catch on to superior technology or because infinite malleability is not that helpful in actually building shipping software? A lot of important ideas originated in the lisp world that are now mainstream like garbage collection, functions as values etc. But I think there are good reasons that most of us don't use s-expression syntax at work.

wiseowise 4y ago
> But I think there are good reasons that most of us don't use s-expression syntax at work. Care to provide one?
medo-bear 4y ago
in general good does not equal popular. and i think its useless wishing that lisp is popular. if it happends so be it. but for "some" reason it keeps on living and people keep building important things with it
chimprich 4y ago
> lisp is still a tiny niche in the programming world You could look at this the other way and be impressed how much Lisps are still used despite being many decades old and all the pressures from other languages. > Is this because programmers are just slow to catch on to superior technology or because infinite malleability is not that helpful in actually building shipping software? I think a lot of it is momentum / fashion / network effect or whatever you want to call it. I've done some work with Lisp in the past and loved it, but I struggle to justify spending time on it. From a corporate level, if you decide to go with Lisp, then you are significantly limiting the pool of available engineers and libraries etc. you can choose from. Whereas if you go with Python then you get a language that is a bit less elegant but close enough in flexibility most of the time, plus a vast ecosystem of resources and expertise to draw from. On a personal level it's similar; Lisp isn't exactly a drawback on your CV, but there's an opportunity cost. There's usually something else to prioritise that will make you more attractive.
dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
> infinite malleability is not that helpful in actually building shipping software Infinite malleability is bad in a team, great alone. I have projects in Common Lisp that are backing more traditional websites (contact form backend with a lot of integration and customization built in, google sheets, email etc.). No one's ever seen the code. No one even knows it runs Lisp. But it's there and working, for years on end, and it takes me very little time to make any occasional changes. That said, it's a lot of custom code and syntax I built, so somebody new would have to learn it if they collaborated with me. And they would obviously have to know Common Lisp in the first place. Lisp is great for hacking alone, but I think a company might be more efficient just hiring a couple mediocre Java devs and calling it a day.
CyberDildonics 4y ago
Citizen Kane and Akira Kurosawa movies get put high up on the list of the best movies of all time. If someone is on a 10 hour bus ride, they aren't going to watch these, they're going to watch the latest marvel movie or star wars series. Lisp may be the most influential programming language of all time, but that doesn't mean it's the best tool. It has a fragmented old eco system, it isn't as simple as scripting languages, it isn't as fast as native languages and its main advantages have been built in to other languages a long time ago.

wiseowise 4y ago

> But I think there are good reasons that most of us don't use s-expression syntax at work. Care to provide one?

medo-bear 4y ago

in general good does not equal popular. and i think its useless wishing that lisp is popular. if it happends so be it. but for "some" reason it keeps on living and people keep building important things with it

chimprich 4y ago

> lisp is still a tiny niche in the programming world You could look at this the other way and be impressed how much Lisps are still used despite being many decades old and all the pressures from other languages. > Is this because programmers are just slow to catch on to superior technology or because infinite malleability is not that helpful in actually building shipping software? I think a lot of it is momentum / fashion / network effect or whatever you want to call it. I've done some work with Lisp in the past and loved it, but I struggle to justify spending time on it. From a corporate level, if you decide to go with Lisp, then you are significantly limiting the pool of available engineers and libraries etc. you can choose from. Whereas if you go with Python then you get a language that is a bit less elegant but close enough in flexibility most of the time, plus a vast ecosystem of resources and expertise to draw from. On a personal level it's similar; Lisp isn't exactly a drawback on your CV, but there's an opportunity cost. There's usually something else to prioritise that will make you more attractive.

dj_mc_merlin 4y ago

> infinite malleability is not that helpful in actually building shipping software Infinite malleability is bad in a team, great alone. I have projects in Common Lisp that are backing more traditional websites (contact form backend with a lot of integration and customization built in, google sheets, email etc.). No one's ever seen the code. No one even knows it runs Lisp. But it's there and working, for years on end, and it takes me very little time to make any occasional changes. That said, it's a lot of custom code and syntax I built, so somebody new would have to learn it if they collaborated with me. And they would obviously have to know Common Lisp in the first place. Lisp is great for hacking alone, but I think a company might be more efficient just hiring a couple mediocre Java devs and calling it a day.

CyberDildonics 4y ago

Citizen Kane and Akira Kurosawa movies get put high up on the list of the best movies of all time. If someone is on a 10 hour bus ride, they aren't going to watch these, they're going to watch the latest marvel movie or star wars series. Lisp may be the most influential programming language of all time, but that doesn't mean it's the best tool. It has a fragmented old eco system, it isn't as simple as scripting languages, it isn't as fast as native languages and its main advantages have been built in to other languages a long time ago.