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Because Lisp gives you all of these things. Functional programming. Fast development. Incremental compilation. Interactive debugging. But the main thing Li

by lisper 4y ago

Because Lisp gives you all of these things. Functional programming. Fast development. Incremental compilation. Interactive debugging. But the main thing Lisp gives you is almost unlimited malleability. If there is ever anything in the language you don't like, you can change it. It also gives you generic functions and the ability to redefine classes in a live system. No other language has those features.

DeathArrow 4y ago
Thanks. Malleability and redefining classes in running code sound like advantages. Can you point to a situation where you might want to redefine classes in live code?
- pjmlp 4y ago
  In a game engine, you don't want to rebuild everything just to change a couple of details in the scene. Live++ and VC++ reload are quite far from what Lisp allows. Or to save a space ship, https://thenewstack.io/nasa-programmer-remembers-debugging-lisp-in-deep-space/ https://thenewstack.io/nasa-programmer-remembers-debugging-l...
  - TurboHaskal 4y ago
    Those Smalltalk and Lisp programmers are again at tweaking their running instances in production. Couldn't they just let it crash and relaunch a new ship as is the best practice these days?
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Somehow it is seen valuable enough that Erlang, Java and .NET developers enjoy similar tooling in production, just not with the same depth as Lisp and Smalltalk.
    - vindarel 4y ago
      yes sure, I deploy my CL web apps with Systemd, just like normal software.
- lisper 4y ago
  Any time you are developing code with a lot of state. Being able to redefine classes on the fly makes the debug cycle much faster.
samoit 4y ago
I think smalltalk has the same image live system. Anyway I do prefer schemes overs lisps.
cageface 4y ago
I've been hearing similar arguments from lisp advocates for decades but lisp is still a tiny niche in the programming world. Is this because programmers are just slow to catch on to superior technology or because infinite malleability is not that helpful in actually building shipping software? A lot of important ideas originated in the lisp world that are now mainstream like garbage collection, functions as values etc. But I think there are good reasons that most of us don't use s-expression syntax at work.
- wiseowise 4y ago
  > But I think there are good reasons that most of us don't use s-expression syntax at work. Care to provide one?
- medo-bear 4y ago
  in general good does not equal popular. and i think its useless wishing that lisp is popular. if it happends so be it. but for "some" reason it keeps on living and people keep building important things with it
- chimprich 4y ago
  > lisp is still a tiny niche in the programming world You could look at this the other way and be impressed how much Lisps are still used despite being many decades old and all the pressures from other languages. > Is this because programmers are just slow to catch on to superior technology or because infinite malleability is not that helpful in actually building shipping software? I think a lot of it is momentum / fashion / network effect or whatever you want to call it. I've done some work with Lisp in the past and loved it, but I struggle to justify spending time on it. From a corporate level, if you decide to go with Lisp, then you are significantly limiting the pool of available engineers and libraries etc. you can choose from. Whereas if you go with Python then you get a language that is a bit less elegant but close enough in flexibility most of the time, plus a vast ecosystem of resources and expertise to draw from. On a personal level it's similar; Lisp isn't exactly a drawback on your CV, but there's an opportunity cost. There's usually something else to prioritise that will make you more attractive.
- dj_mc_merlin 4y ago

by lisper 4y ago

DeathArrow 4y ago

Thanks. Malleability and redefining classes in running code sound like advantages. Can you point to a situation where you might want to redefine classes in live code?

pjmlp 4y ago
In a game engine, you don't want to rebuild everything just to change a couple of details in the scene. Live++ and VC++ reload are quite far from what Lisp allows. Or to save a space ship, https://thenewstack.io/nasa-programmer-remembers-debugging-lisp-in-deep-space/ https://thenewstack.io/nasa-programmer-remembers-debugging-l...
- TurboHaskal 4y ago
  Those Smalltalk and Lisp programmers are again at tweaking their running instances in production. Couldn't they just let it crash and relaunch a new ship as is the best practice these days?
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Somehow it is seen valuable enough that Erlang, Java and .NET developers enjoy similar tooling in production, just not with the same depth as Lisp and Smalltalk.
  - vindarel 4y ago
    yes sure, I deploy my CL web apps with Systemd, just like normal software.
lisper 4y ago
Any time you are developing code with a lot of state. Being able to redefine classes on the fly makes the debug cycle much faster.

samoit 4y ago

I think smalltalk has the same image live system. Anyway I do prefer schemes overs lisps.

cageface 4y ago

I've been hearing similar arguments from lisp advocates for decades but lisp is still a tiny niche in the programming world. Is this because programmers are just slow to catch on to superior technology or because infinite malleability is not that helpful in actually building shipping software? A lot of important ideas originated in the lisp world that are now mainstream like garbage collection, functions as values etc. But I think there are good reasons that most of us don't use s-expression syntax at work.

wiseowise 4y ago
> But I think there are good reasons that most of us don't use s-expression syntax at work. Care to provide one?
medo-bear 4y ago
in general good does not equal popular. and i think its useless wishing that lisp is popular. if it happends so be it. but for "some" reason it keeps on living and people keep building important things with it
chimprich 4y ago
> lisp is still a tiny niche in the programming world You could look at this the other way and be impressed how much Lisps are still used despite being many decades old and all the pressures from other languages. > Is this because programmers are just slow to catch on to superior technology or because infinite malleability is not that helpful in actually building shipping software? I think a lot of it is momentum / fashion / network effect or whatever you want to call it. I've done some work with Lisp in the past and loved it, but I struggle to justify spending time on it. From a corporate level, if you decide to go with Lisp, then you are significantly limiting the pool of available engineers and libraries etc. you can choose from. Whereas if you go with Python then you get a language that is a bit less elegant but close enough in flexibility most of the time, plus a vast ecosystem of resources and expertise to draw from. On a personal level it's similar; Lisp isn't exactly a drawback on your CV, but there's an opportunity cost. There's usually something else to prioritise that will make you more attractive.
dj_mc_merlin 4y ago