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Everything in that thread seems correct, but it doesn't address why its so bad on social media sufficiently, as those philosophical language and principal probl
by didericis 4y ago
Everything in that thread seems correct, but it doesn't address why its so bad on social media sufficiently, as those philosophical language and principal problems apply to all forms of written communication that have managed to avoid the problems of social media, including wide open written communication (remember actual bulletin boards instead of virtual bulletin boards? Wide open text forums are not a new thing)
I'm very confident at this point that the problem is the enormous size of the rooms where everyone is talking.
I don't think user behavior will ever be better in a sufficiently large room. Effective communication requires shared context which is impossible to establish when a room is sufficiently large and sufficiently diverse.
What we're seeing with increased political polarization is I think an attempt by most people to differentiate themselves into groups of like minded people not just so they can form echo chambers, but so they can actually talk and be heard, and hear what other people are saying. You don't get that when the room becomes global in scale, you just get a bunch of noise, as is mentioned.
I think we're in a particularly nasty situation in tech because most of the people involved in creating and administering these platforms have a huge blindspot when it comes to the lack of context hopping ability in the average person, because the people that tend to get into tech tend to be very open to global connectivity and actually do have somewhat of a capacity to hop around and absorb a huge range of different contexts (although much more superficially than I think they realize/that's the price of extreme openness).
I am also fairly confident the solution is to create user managed and federated platforms. The problem would I think solve itself if people were better able to control what online social groups they expose themselves to. We've been organizing ourselves for thousands of years into a hierarchical networks of different families/towns/cities/states because those are the only long term stable systems that can deal with the huge variations in contextual difference between people. You can still have egalitarian cosmopolitan global villages for people who want that, and you can still have emissaries and exchange programs and global shared interest channels and encourage cooperation amongst different groups and avoid conflict, but I think the idea of a singular all encompassing global village was always a terribly thought out, completely untenable idea that would never work at scale.
I was going to write an article on this a long time ago after a similar thread came up here, but I don't have any clout and ended up getting swamped in other things, so I never did. Properly making this case would also require a lot of research and historical comparison to really evaluate, but the more time passes, the stronger and stronger my hunch is that we need to do almost exactly the opposite of what most people seem to think we should and allow people to differentiate themselves instead of forcing them to be together and all play by the same rules. The echo chambers will become less echoey if you allow people to build their own and feel safe enough to poke their heads out of when they feel sufficiently understood in their corner. The echo chambers are the result of gamed automated feeds where people are trying to signal I want my space by pulling harder and harder in a direction that makes them less and less likely to be bombarded with stuff they don't want entering their space involuntarily.
- password4321 4y agoYou blame audience/reach, I blame algorithms favoring engagement (aka controversy).
- didericis 4y agoI blame both, but I think the audience/reach factor is more ubiquitous. Specifically, I think the problem is an inability for most people to properly filter in sufficiently large rooms, not the audience/reach factor in and of itself. This commenter is talking about whatsapp behavior in Brazil and gives an example of a seemingly similar situation where there doesn't seem to be as much engagement focused algorithmic influence at play https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33459878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33459878
- anonyme-honteux 4y agoPlease write that article, I want to read it and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
- didericis 4y agoThank you, I'll see if I can actually force myself to do it this time.
- BlueTemplar 4y agoYou might to want to look up at what happened when the "alt-right" Gab decided to start using the "liberal" Mastodon...
- anonyme-honteux 4y agoif that can help, you can email me a shitty first draft and ask for feedback if writing the whole things with all the historical research sounds like a daunting task https://jmfayard.dev/ https://jmfayard.dev/
- AnimalMuppet 4y agoAll of our brains have limited bandwidth. I can engage with someone very different from me, but not many of them at the same time, and not many who are different along different axes. So if I want to talk - genuinely talk - to someone who's politically, religiously, or philosophically very different from me, one at a time works best. So, I agree. The enormous size of the room is a problem. If you're X, you can't have a one-on-one conversation with someone who's Y without having a bunch of other Ys jump in, and then a bunch of Xs in response. And then you get a bunch of Zs piling on, and the whole thing becomes a shouting match, not a calm, reasonable conversation. I echo what others have said. That article sounds important, and useful. Please write it.