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I disagree, we can't frame this discussion on only the content. My whatsapp "feed" is doing just fine. The problem are all the other whatsapp groups that I'm no

by ufo 4y ago

I disagree, we can't frame this discussion on only the content. My whatsapp "feed" is doing just fine. The problem are all the other whatsapp groups that I'm not in, which are filled with hateful politics. It hurts when I meet in real life a friend that you haven't met in a while, and then find out that they've been radicalized. The radical Bolsonaro whatsapp groups are a mix of top down and grass roots content. On one end there is the central "propaganda office", or other top political articulators. On the bottom are the grassroots group chats: neightborhoods, churches, biker communities, office mates, etc. Memes and viral content flow in both directions. The contents and messages that ressonate in the lower levels are actively distributed by the central articulators, which have a hierarchy of group chats to circulate new propaganda as widely as possible. You can see this happen in real time when a political conundrum happens,e.g a corruption scandal. The central office will A-B test various messages in their group chats and then the one that resonates better with their base gets amplified and suddenly they manage to "change the topic" on the news. The end result is that we just had 4 years of political chaos, where the modus operandi of the goverment was to put out fires by deflecting the public discourse whenever a new crisis emerged. It's not merely a content problem that could be solved by a better filtration algorithm. It's a deeper issue of how social media can affect human behavior. How quickly ideas can spread, how easy it became for people to self-organize into "bubbles", and so on.

MikePlacid 4y ago
> The problem are all the other whatsapp groups that I'm not in, which are filled with hateful politics. If you do not like hateful politics, just filter them out - of your own feed. My solution, if implemented, will give you exactly that opportunity.
- acdha 4y ago
  How precisely does that protect you from the people who are seeking those out? Filtering your feed doesn’t cause them not to vote against their interests, firebomb your store, or attempt to assassinate leaders.
  - didericis 4y ago
    People are not seeking those groups out of nowhere. Most of them are getting pushed there from automated platforms bombarding them with things they can't stand. The automated outrage machines are what radicalize people, not the private message groups. By the time you have private message groups propagating the same messaging the damage has already been done. To get people out, you need to cut off the source of the outrage and soothe whatever fear is being ramped up. Censoring the outrage and dismissing/patronizing people from a position of authority doesn't work, it just acts as an accelerant. I think the crazy groups will sputter out if there's enough space for venting, free association, and ability for the average person to turn off things they don't want to see. I think that last point is the key. Millions of people are bombarded with things they really don't like in systems they have no way to really manage themselves. The legitimate complaints will filter up and out of the crazy circles if people are allowed to form their own groups and don't feel forced to pack themselves together around the loudest people who can given them a voice on the big automated feeds they don't really understand. People have a much better chance at effectively communicating with their neighbor or family member or old friend with a different perspective than a stranger online with a different perspective, and they are much more likely to engage when in a frame of mind that will actually accept differences of opinion if they are managing their own connections and exposure themselves.
    - ufo 4y ago
      Automated platforms such as twitter certainly play a role in the social media landscape. But in Brazil they are not dominant. Whatsapp rules supreme and is the primary source for news for over 75% of Brazilians. Viral content here starts on Whatsapp and flows out to twitter, instead of the other way around. Some viral content does get bombarded, but it's actively done so by humans instead of by recommendation algorithms.
      - didericis 4y ago
        Interesting, that violates some of my assumptions. I think the basic model I'm suggesting might still be at play, though. I'm guessing most of those whatsapp groups are really big, so they effectively prevent people from insulating themselves from outrage if they just want to know whats happening. They can't just form a group with their friends and find other channels just to stay informed with minimal outrage and can't find news that's just straight news, the main source of news is the big viral firehose where outrage dominates. Does that seem accurate? This conversation also speaks to the social complexity that gets obfuscated by some of these big platforms and the fact that things are different in all kinds of ways in different parts of the world. I don't know really anything about Brazil besides some fairly superficial basic history/culture and have pretty much zero contextual understanding of what it's like to live/communicate there. The fact that the same thing seems to be happening all over the world is really weird. That's why I think it has a tight relationship to scale of communication channels, as that seems to be the main thing that's changed recently and is consistent regardless of specific platform/means of communication.
- ufo 4y ago
  My feed is already fine; no one is posting hateful politics on the group chats that I am in. The problem is that even if the hateful content doesn't reach me, it's still out there reaching other people. In the US, they ended up with stuff like the Capitol Insurrection. Here in Brazil, as we speak there are disgruntled "stop the steal" extremists blocking roads and calling for a military coup.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    Why are we trying to bring technical solutions to a social problem ?
    - MikePlacid 4y ago
      Well, noise/signal ratio is rather a technical problem, which can be solved by technical means. Wrong signal - is not a problem for society, in my always humble opinion. It’s a problem only for those who want bad things. Silence helps them, not the society.
    - vkou 4y ago
      It's a social problem that's largely been created by technical solutions. To put simply, radicalization is a lot easier when you give every loon with an axe to grind both a megaphone, and an echo chamber to invite new recruits into. Now, there are also problems with a world that doesn't give everyone access to 1:N broadcast media, but they are different problems.
    - numpad0 4y ago
      because HN users in royal we strongly believes in an automated technocracy by means of evolutionarily derived information technology techniques. This is a pseudo-religion without a sound scientific basis. Which I have my faith with by the way.
- quinnjh 4y ago
  Great solution! What will you do if your users then filter out everyone who disagrees them and end up forming self radicalizing echo chambers which are highly polarized ?
  - MikePlacid 4y ago
    Echo chambers - in my experience, starting from Fido - are usually created by moderators. Unmoderated, people like arguing no less than having others sharing their views around.
makeitdouble 4y ago
It’s a hurtful topic and has complicated ramifications, but… > other whatsapp groups that I'm not in, which are filled with hateful politics. That brings the discussion from you to others users, and your goal seems to be to change how other users are affected by their time on a platform. > The radical Bolsonaro whatsapp groups are a mix of top down and grass roots content. You seem to be talking about motivated individuals who formed groups with a specific purpose and express their views and propositions in these specific groups (which you don’t belong to, as mentioned first) Whatever way we slice it, short of the platform banning their related topics entirely, I don’t see how a neutral service could act about these people/ideas spreading, from a mere platform POV. You’re talking about thought policing private groups basically.
- ufo 4y ago
  For sure, it would be foolish to assume that the problems could be solved by changing the software, or passing a new law. Policing private groups is impossible. We're living in a new world of social media and we still need to figure out how to deal with that. I hope that in the long term there is some kind of culture shift with how people interact with the internet, because whatever we're doing today isn't working. By the way, I mentioned Bolsonaro explicitly because those groups are currently the better organized ones in the Brazilian social media space, masters at exploiting the Whatsapp dynamics. But the fundamental problem is not exclusive to the extreme right.
  - dumpsterlid 4y ago
    The extreme right is literally the fundamental problem. People keep saying "both sides" in this thread and honestly in most places in the world (especially US, Europe and as mentioned on this thread often, Brazil) the extreme right IS the problem. We don't need to invent scary leftist groups that threaten to overthrow the US government by storming the US capitol with nooses, we can just admit that it is the far right doing this on mass not the left and drop this stupid need to portray these global changes as a political radicalization on both sides rather than white nationalism becoming more openly violent and extreme. Far right extremists are the problem, keep "both sides" out of this.

by ufo 4y ago

MikePlacid 4y ago

> The problem are all the other whatsapp groups that I'm not in, which are filled with hateful politics. If you do not like hateful politics, just filter them out - of your own feed. My solution, if implemented, will give you exactly that opportunity.

acdha 4y ago
How precisely does that protect you from the people who are seeking those out? Filtering your feed doesn’t cause them not to vote against their interests, firebomb your store, or attempt to assassinate leaders.
- didericis 4y ago
  People are not seeking those groups out of nowhere. Most of them are getting pushed there from automated platforms bombarding them with things they can't stand. The automated outrage machines are what radicalize people, not the private message groups. By the time you have private message groups propagating the same messaging the damage has already been done. To get people out, you need to cut off the source of the outrage and soothe whatever fear is being ramped up. Censoring the outrage and dismissing/patronizing people from a position of authority doesn't work, it just acts as an accelerant. I think the crazy groups will sputter out if there's enough space for venting, free association, and ability for the average person to turn off things they don't want to see. I think that last point is the key. Millions of people are bombarded with things they really don't like in systems they have no way to really manage themselves. The legitimate complaints will filter up and out of the crazy circles if people are allowed to form their own groups and don't feel forced to pack themselves together around the loudest people who can given them a voice on the big automated feeds they don't really understand. People have a much better chance at effectively communicating with their neighbor or family member or old friend with a different perspective than a stranger online with a different perspective, and they are much more likely to engage when in a frame of mind that will actually accept differences of opinion if they are managing their own connections and exposure themselves.
  - ufo 4y ago
    Automated platforms such as twitter certainly play a role in the social media landscape. But in Brazil they are not dominant. Whatsapp rules supreme and is the primary source for news for over 75% of Brazilians. Viral content here starts on Whatsapp and flows out to twitter, instead of the other way around. Some viral content does get bombarded, but it's actively done so by humans instead of by recommendation algorithms.
    - didericis 4y ago
      Interesting, that violates some of my assumptions. I think the basic model I'm suggesting might still be at play, though. I'm guessing most of those whatsapp groups are really big, so they effectively prevent people from insulating themselves from outrage if they just want to know whats happening. They can't just form a group with their friends and find other channels just to stay informed with minimal outrage and can't find news that's just straight news, the main source of news is the big viral firehose where outrage dominates. Does that seem accurate? This conversation also speaks to the social complexity that gets obfuscated by some of these big platforms and the fact that things are different in all kinds of ways in different parts of the world. I don't know really anything about Brazil besides some fairly superficial basic history/culture and have pretty much zero contextual understanding of what it's like to live/communicate there. The fact that the same thing seems to be happening all over the world is really weird. That's why I think it has a tight relationship to scale of communication channels, as that seems to be the main thing that's changed recently and is consistent regardless of specific platform/means of communication.
ufo 4y ago
My feed is already fine; no one is posting hateful politics on the group chats that I am in. The problem is that even if the hateful content doesn't reach me, it's still out there reaching other people. In the US, they ended up with stuff like the Capitol Insurrection. Here in Brazil, as we speak there are disgruntled "stop the steal" extremists blocking roads and calling for a military coup.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  Why are we trying to bring technical solutions to a social problem ?
  - MikePlacid 4y ago
    Well, noise/signal ratio is rather a technical problem, which can be solved by technical means. Wrong signal - is not a problem for society, in my always humble opinion. It’s a problem only for those who want bad things. Silence helps them, not the society.
  - vkou 4y ago
    It's a social problem that's largely been created by technical solutions. To put simply, radicalization is a lot easier when you give every loon with an axe to grind both a megaphone, and an echo chamber to invite new recruits into. Now, there are also problems with a world that doesn't give everyone access to 1:N broadcast media, but they are different problems.
  - numpad0 4y ago
    because HN users in royal we strongly believes in an automated technocracy by means of evolutionarily derived information technology techniques. This is a pseudo-religion without a sound scientific basis. Which I have my faith with by the way.
quinnjh 4y ago
Great solution! What will you do if your users then filter out everyone who disagrees them and end up forming self radicalizing echo chambers which are highly polarized ?
- MikePlacid 4y ago
  Echo chambers - in my experience, starting from Fido - are usually created by moderators. Unmoderated, people like arguing no less than having others sharing their views around.

makeitdouble 4y ago

It’s a hurtful topic and has complicated ramifications, but… > other whatsapp groups that I'm not in, which are filled with hateful politics. That brings the discussion from you to others users, and your goal seems to be to change how other users are affected by their time on a platform. > The radical Bolsonaro whatsapp groups are a mix of top down and grass roots content. You seem to be talking about motivated individuals who formed groups with a specific purpose and express their views and propositions in these specific groups (which you don’t belong to, as mentioned first) Whatever way we slice it, short of the platform banning their related topics entirely, I don’t see how a neutral service could act about these people/ideas spreading, from a mere platform POV. You’re talking about thought policing private groups basically.

ufo 4y ago
For sure, it would be foolish to assume that the problems could be solved by changing the software, or passing a new law. Policing private groups is impossible. We're living in a new world of social media and we still need to figure out how to deal with that. I hope that in the long term there is some kind of culture shift with how people interact with the internet, because whatever we're doing today isn't working. By the way, I mentioned Bolsonaro explicitly because those groups are currently the better organized ones in the Brazilian social media space, masters at exploiting the Whatsapp dynamics. But the fundamental problem is not exclusive to the extreme right.
- dumpsterlid 4y ago
  The extreme right is literally the fundamental problem. People keep saying "both sides" in this thread and honestly in most places in the world (especially US, Europe and as mentioned on this thread often, Brazil) the extreme right IS the problem. We don't need to invent scary leftist groups that threaten to overthrow the US government by storming the US capitol with nooses, we can just admit that it is the far right doing this on mass not the left and drop this stupid need to portray these global changes as a political radicalization on both sides rather than white nationalism becoming more openly violent and extreme. Far right extremists are the problem, keep "both sides" out of this.