4 ms·

There is quite a bright line between "needing to spend a significant amount of money to be allowed to fly somewhere" and "needing to spend a significant amount

There is quite a bright line between "needing to spend a significant amount of money to be allowed to fly somewhere" and "needing to spend a significant amount of money to be allowed to vote". In case you hadn't noticed, there are places in the US where the process of applying for and receiving a government-approved ID is much harder (in terms of time and money) for some groups of people than for others, and (not coincidentally) the groups most likely to be disproportionately burdened are the groups who are more likely to vote for the party in opposition to the one that introduced these rules.

yucky 4y ago
Anywhere that ID is required to vote offers free options for ID. That is by law, due to poll tax restrictions, so what you're saying is not true. Also, in states that require voter ID there are no "groups" who are under-represented, so the idea that it prevents people from voting is demonstrably false.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  I think you're underestimating the ingenuity of the restrictions that can be put in place. By making the ID require a long journey (by car), and spending hours waiting in a line, it can cause people to miss a day of work or education (whereas retirees aren't as impacted). Also, assuming people can skip this onerous process if they have a driver's license, that means that people who can't afford a car are more affected by this requirement. You might think that everyone in America owns a car, or at least has access to one they can drive, but only "61 percent of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license in 2018".[0] A similar bias can be found in states which accept gun licenses but not state student ID cards as valid for voting. If you really think there are no groups who are under-represented in these states, you should really provide some statistics on voter turnout for different age groups and demographics. Do you really think that homeless people are as likely to have a valid form of ID as people who own a million dollar home? [0] https://www.statista.com/chart/18682/percentage-of-the-us-population-holding-a-drivers-license-by-age-group/ https://www.statista.com/chart/18682/percentage-of-the-us-po...
  - yucky 4y ago
    Every state offers State ID's, you don't need a drivers license. And since you need an ID for countless different things other than voting, it's not absurd to ask for one. Also, as mentioned, EVERY state that requires ID to vote is required by law to provide free voting ID options. Every single one. Also, as I have already said, there are a number of states that require ID to vote and have for Years and there is not suppressed voter turnout in any demographic in any of those states.
    - dane-pgp 4y ago
      > EVERY state that requires ID to vote is required by law to provide free voting ID options. Every single one. I didn't dispute that. All I'm saying is that for people of reduced means or reduced mobility, getting these "free" ID cards is disproportionately more difficult. I'm not claiming to be an expert in these matters, but you really need to consider what 'just getting a free voting ID' looks like in practice: "For example, the office in Sauk City, Wisconsin is open only on the fifth Wednesday of any month. But only four months in 2012 — February, May, August, and October — have five Wednesdays."[0] "voters may be particularly affected by the significant costs of the documentation required to obtain a photo ID. Birth certificates can cost between $8 and $25. Marriage licenses, required for married women whose birth certificates include a maiden name, can cost between $8 and $20. By comparison, the notorious poll tax — outlawed during the civil rights era — cost $10.64 in current dollars."[0] "I will never forget the Navajo grandmother who spoke only Navajo and could not vote after Arizona passed its voter ID law in 2004. She tried several times to obtain an Arizona ID on her own but was denied because she was born at home in a hogan, and the boarding schools changed her Navajo name to English."[1] > there is not suppressed voter turnout in any demographic in any of those states. I'd love to see your data on this. The research I've found says quite the opposite: "Using this tool, the researchers confirmed what voting rights advocates already know to be true—that black voters are more likely to lack adequate identification under voter ID laws. According to the study, 3.6 percent of registered white voters had no match in any state or federal ID database. By contrast, 7.5 percent of black registered voters were missing from those databases."[2] Show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome. I don't know why you find it so unbelievable that a party with the power to introduce partisan-biased voter suppressing laws, and with every incentive to do so, might in fact pass such laws. To assume that they wouldn't do so flies in the face of everything we know about government corruption and human nature. [0] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/challenge-obtaining-voter-identification https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/chal... [1] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/voting-rights/how-the-native-american-vote-continues-to-be-suppressed/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r... [2] https://www.wired.com/story/voter-id-law-algorithm/ https://www.wired.com/story/voter-id-law-algorithm/

yucky 4y ago

Anywhere that ID is required to vote offers free options for ID. That is by law, due to poll tax restrictions, so what you're saying is not true. Also, in states that require voter ID there are no "groups" who are under-represented, so the idea that it prevents people from voting is demonstrably false.

dane-pgp 4y ago
I think you're underestimating the ingenuity of the restrictions that can be put in place. By making the ID require a long journey (by car), and spending hours waiting in a line, it can cause people to miss a day of work or education (whereas retirees aren't as impacted). Also, assuming people can skip this onerous process if they have a driver's license, that means that people who can't afford a car are more affected by this requirement. You might think that everyone in America owns a car, or at least has access to one they can drive, but only "61 percent of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver’s license in 2018".[0] A similar bias can be found in states which accept gun licenses but not state student ID cards as valid for voting. If you really think there are no groups who are under-represented in these states, you should really provide some statistics on voter turnout for different age groups and demographics. Do you really think that homeless people are as likely to have a valid form of ID as people who own a million dollar home? [0] https://www.statista.com/chart/18682/percentage-of-the-us-population-holding-a-drivers-license-by-age-group/ https://www.statista.com/chart/18682/percentage-of-the-us-po...
- yucky 4y ago
  Every state offers State ID's, you don't need a drivers license. And since you need an ID for countless different things other than voting, it's not absurd to ask for one. Also, as mentioned, EVERY state that requires ID to vote is required by law to provide free voting ID options. Every single one. Also, as I have already said, there are a number of states that require ID to vote and have for Years and there is not suppressed voter turnout in any demographic in any of those states.
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    > EVERY state that requires ID to vote is required by law to provide free voting ID options. Every single one. I didn't dispute that. All I'm saying is that for people of reduced means or reduced mobility, getting these "free" ID cards is disproportionately more difficult. I'm not claiming to be an expert in these matters, but you really need to consider what 'just getting a free voting ID' looks like in practice: "For example, the office in Sauk City, Wisconsin is open only on the fifth Wednesday of any month. But only four months in 2012 — February, May, August, and October — have five Wednesdays."[0] "voters may be particularly affected by the significant costs of the documentation required to obtain a photo ID. Birth certificates can cost between $8 and $25. Marriage licenses, required for married women whose birth certificates include a maiden name, can cost between $8 and $20. By comparison, the notorious poll tax — outlawed during the civil rights era — cost $10.64 in current dollars."[0] "I will never forget the Navajo grandmother who spoke only Navajo and could not vote after Arizona passed its voter ID law in 2004. She tried several times to obtain an Arizona ID on her own but was denied because she was born at home in a hogan, and the boarding schools changed her Navajo name to English."[1] > there is not suppressed voter turnout in any demographic in any of those states. I'd love to see your data on this. The research I've found says quite the opposite: "Using this tool, the researchers confirmed what voting rights advocates already know to be true—that black voters are more likely to lack adequate identification under voter ID laws. According to the study, 3.6 percent of registered white voters had no match in any state or federal ID database. By contrast, 7.5 percent of black registered voters were missing from those databases."[2] Show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome. I don't know why you find it so unbelievable that a party with the power to introduce partisan-biased voter suppressing laws, and with every incentive to do so, might in fact pass such laws. To assume that they wouldn't do so flies in the face of everything we know about government corruption and human nature. [0] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/challenge-obtaining-voter-identification https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/chal... [1] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/voting-rights/how-the-native-american-vote-continues-to-be-suppressed/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r... [2] https://www.wired.com/story/voter-id-law-algorithm/ https://www.wired.com/story/voter-id-law-algorithm/