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It's fair to criticize the end to end encrypted claim though because for a long time, WhatsApp was storing unencrypted backups. Now that has been improved, but

by est31 4y ago

It's fair to criticize the end to end encrypted claim though because for a long time, WhatsApp was storing unencrypted backups. Now that has been improved, but I doubt that most people opt into that. If 10% of users has turned off backups, and 5% has put a password on their backups, you have 85% of people being vulnerable. If some authority wants to know what has been discussed on WhatsApp, they won't ask Meta, they will ask Google or Apple. With the above (imaginary) numbers, if there is a group with 5 random Signal users and a group with 5 random WhatsApp users, the WhatsApp content is going to be available most likely to authorities that Google and Apple deliver content to, while the content of the Signal group is most likely not available. For iCloud, Apple claims end to end encryption but they keep a backup key around so it's mostly just marketing. There might be a small benefit from this through protection from employees side stepping company policies.

xerxesaa 4y ago
Sure, that's a fair point. Backups were initially not encrypted, but as you mentioned, this option is now available. Without going into too much detail, I can tell you a huge challenge with encrypted backups is compliance - many people simply do not opt-in to using encrypted backups. It's a difficult line to walk because ultimately you don't want to pester users too much about using encrypted backups either. In case it's not clear, the reason it requires opt-in is because you (i.e., the user) control the encryption keys and therefore you must take some action to write down a key or passphrase. As you may imagine, the average messaging app user is not as tech savvy as the average Hacker News user and many simply don't want to go through this extra step. Even worse, if they opt-in to encrypted backups and lose their keys, they will end up blaming Meta for not giving them a way to restore their message history when their phone gets lost (it's not easy to explain that it's your responsibility as the user to keep your keys safely stored).
- est31 4y ago
  Definitely, this is a hard tradeoff to make. Users very often care more about having access to their messages than them being not accessible to authorities/advertisers/etc, and they are very often not very savvy. As you say they also probably don't choose the most secure passwords. Signal on the other hand sides on the side of security so much that it makes the app purposefully less useable, e.g. with their pin feature. But it doesn't have this backup problem. It's not a situation that has an easy solution atm. But I think it's important to note that the belief of many users is wrong that end-to-end encryption implies that message content is unavailable to governments unless they get unlocked access to devices of communication partners.
  - xerxesaa 4y ago
    All fair points.

by est31 4y ago

xerxesaa 4y ago

Sure, that's a fair point. Backups were initially not encrypted, but as you mentioned, this option is now available. Without going into too much detail, I can tell you a huge challenge with encrypted backups is compliance - many people simply do not opt-in to using encrypted backups. It's a difficult line to walk because ultimately you don't want to pester users too much about using encrypted backups either. In case it's not clear, the reason it requires opt-in is because you (i.e., the user) control the encryption keys and therefore you must take some action to write down a key or passphrase. As you may imagine, the average messaging app user is not as tech savvy as the average Hacker News user and many simply don't want to go through this extra step. Even worse, if they opt-in to encrypted backups and lose their keys, they will end up blaming Meta for not giving them a way to restore their message history when their phone gets lost (it's not easy to explain that it's your responsibility as the user to keep your keys safely stored).

est31 4y ago
Definitely, this is a hard tradeoff to make. Users very often care more about having access to their messages than them being not accessible to authorities/advertisers/etc, and they are very often not very savvy. As you say they also probably don't choose the most secure passwords. Signal on the other hand sides on the side of security so much that it makes the app purposefully less useable, e.g. with their pin feature. But it doesn't have this backup problem. It's not a situation that has an easy solution atm. But I think it's important to note that the belief of many users is wrong that end-to-end encryption implies that message content is unavailable to governments unless they get unlocked access to devices of communication partners.
- xerxesaa 4y ago
  All fair points.