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What caused you to get lost in the weeds before, would love to help! Was it a software or technical resources problem. I work on https://github.com/pion/webrtc

What caused you to get lost in the weeds before, would love to help! Was it a software or technical resources problem. I work on https://github.com/pion/webrtc https://github.com/pion/webrtc and https://webrtcforthecurious.com https://webrtcforthecurious.com and love solving both problem :) WebRTC has a really cool feature called `ICE Restart` that solves the 'walk out the door' problem.

zackmorris 4y ago
Oh nice, I didn't know about ICE Restart before. Is there a way to make it automatic or set the timeout? I just skimmed the docs and it looks like it takes 30 seconds to realize that the peers aren't talking anymore. For a game, I might make that a few seconds to stay below the roughly 7 second attention span of most people. But ya, I got windowing working, and came up with a scheme to store the app's identifier (4 digit creator code on macOS) in a checksum by subtracting the actual checksum to be left with a remainder like 'app1'. So the game would transmit on checksum app1 instead of port 12345 for example. But I realized the overhead of computing the checksum might make it vulnerable to denial of service attacks, so maybe a separate field might have been better for faster filtering. I halfway implemented some slow start and Nagle algorithm stuff too. But NAT negotiation with STUN/TURN/UPnP/NAT-PMP or similar killed the project. That's so hard to solve for humans that I wouldn't even try now, I would probably enter all of the states in a giant truth table or graph and write a stateless solution with the time element removed instead. This was over 15 years ago though so the C++ code isn't really any good anymore. Also because of buffer overrun exploits in C, I think it's better to use a proven (formally tested?) framework like WebRTC instead, even for low-level stuff like games. We have GHz processors now that can handle any level of complexity around ~1500 byte packets and still saturate pipes, so trying to go bare-metal there strikes me as premature optimization that isn't usually worth the risk it exposes. The next thing that got me was, I didn't know about coroutines. So I had incredibly elaborate state machines for the game logic that quickly became unmaintainable even for the simple puzzle games I was prototyping. Today I would use a state manager like Redux or a software-transactional memory (STM) or a conflict-free replicated data type (CRDT), maybe distributed with Raft/Paxos somehow so that all peers can see the same state. An event-driven interface like the one used by Firebase/RethinkDB/Supabase, maybe CouchDB or similar, would be good too. I got stuck on solving consensus, like when 2 people hit each other at the same time, but maybe that's been solved. And then there's the matchmaking/lounge server. I cobbled something together using an IRC-style syntax, but was never happy with it. Maybe something like Matrix would work there. Believe it or not, I haven't actually used WebRTC yet, but want to. I also don't want a competing standard in WebTransport. I think what I was always looking for was a connectionless reliable stream, which was never a thing on the web, which set innovation back perhaps 25 years because only a handful of apps like Skype managed to pull it off. It appears that QUIC comes closest. And if WebRTC is the only one that's solved NAT and the connectionless part with ICE Restart and peer identifiers, then I'll consider that the standard. <rant> Sorry this got a little long, I'm just passionate about the injustice of stuff like NAT. I feel that the lack of solutions around this stuff was deliberate by the telecom industry. It all but ruined my game development career by making it difficult to compete with large AAA studios after the mid-2000s (until the arrival of Unreal/Unity perhaps). This is 1 of 100 rabbit holes that I've been down only to fail. So I appreciate that people like you are shedding light on this stuff so that maybe the next generation will be able to work feely without artificial barriers holding them back.

zackmorris 4y ago

Oh nice, I didn't know about ICE Restart before. Is there a way to make it automatic or set the timeout? I just skimmed the docs and it looks like it takes 30 seconds to realize that the peers aren't talking anymore. For a game, I might make that a few seconds to stay below the roughly 7 second attention span of most people. But ya, I got windowing working, and came up with a scheme to store the app's identifier (4 digit creator code on macOS) in a checksum by subtracting the actual checksum to be left with a remainder like 'app1'. So the game would transmit on checksum app1 instead of port 12345 for example. But I realized the overhead of computing the checksum might make it vulnerable to denial of service attacks, so maybe a separate field might have been better for faster filtering. I halfway implemented some slow start and Nagle algorithm stuff too. But NAT negotiation with STUN/TURN/UPnP/NAT-PMP or similar killed the project. That's so hard to solve for humans that I wouldn't even try now, I would probably enter all of the states in a giant truth table or graph and write a stateless solution with the time element removed instead. This was over 15 years ago though so the C++ code isn't really any good anymore. Also because of buffer overrun exploits in C, I think it's better to use a proven (formally tested?) framework like WebRTC instead, even for low-level stuff like games. We have GHz processors now that can handle any level of complexity around ~1500 byte packets and still saturate pipes, so trying to go bare-metal there strikes me as premature optimization that isn't usually worth the risk it exposes. The next thing that got me was, I didn't know about coroutines. So I had incredibly elaborate state machines for the game logic that quickly became unmaintainable even for the simple puzzle games I was prototyping. Today I would use a state manager like Redux or a software-transactional memory (STM) or a conflict-free replicated data type (CRDT), maybe distributed with Raft/Paxos somehow so that all peers can see the same state. An event-driven interface like the one used by Firebase/RethinkDB/Supabase, maybe CouchDB or similar, would be good too. I got stuck on solving consensus, like when 2 people hit each other at the same time, but maybe that's been solved. And then there's the matchmaking/lounge server. I cobbled something together using an IRC-style syntax, but was never happy with it. Maybe something like Matrix would work there. Believe it or not, I haven't actually used WebRTC yet, but want to. I also don't want a competing standard in WebTransport. I think what I was always looking for was a connectionless reliable stream, which was never a thing on the web, which set innovation back perhaps 25 years because only a handful of apps like Skype managed to pull it off. It appears that QUIC comes closest. And if WebRTC is the only one that's solved NAT and the connectionless part with ICE Restart and peer identifiers, then I'll consider that the standard. <rant> Sorry this got a little long, I'm just passionate about the injustice of stuff like NAT. I feel that the lack of solutions around this stuff was deliberate by the telecom industry. It all but ruined my game development career by making it difficult to compete with large AAA studios after the mid-2000s (until the arrival of Unreal/Unity perhaps). This is 1 of 100 rabbit holes that I've been down only to fail. So I appreciate that people like you are shedding light on this stuff so that maybe the next generation will be able to work feely without artificial barriers holding them back.