3 ms·

I think the issue comes from the idea that in tough times, good leaders take their lumps before they expect it from their team. There's lots of colloquialisms t

by bumby 4y ago

I think the issue comes from the idea that in tough times, good leaders take their lumps before they expect it from their team. There's lots of colloquialisms that seem to fit this: "Leaders eat last" "We cut the fat starting at the top" "Leaders need to have endurance beyond their troops" I have no skin in the game either. The severance packages are commendable, but I don't think it actually answers the OP's question about accountability. I don't want to speak for the other commenter, but I think what they're looking for is some indication that the leadership has personally sacrificed something equal to or exceeding what they expected out of their subordinates. Giving out millions in severance, while commendable, isn't a personal sacrifice.

scarface74 4y ago
The company is not a charity. I expect no more from a company than to pay me for every hour I work. I can leave anytime I want and they can let me go anytime that the relationship is not mutually beneficial. I keep a go to hell fund, an updated resume, an updated career document, a strong network of former coworkers, managers, and external recruiters and make sure my skillset is in line with the market.
- bumby 4y ago
  But I'm assuming you expect management to be good leaders, no? I don't think "for profit" and "good leadership" are mutually exclusive.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    I expect nothing from managers. When the pay/bullshit ratio starts going in the wrong direction, I have just as much agency to leave as they do to let me go.
    - bumby 4y ago
      >I expect nothing from managers. You don't expect them to pay you? Treat you with respect? To observe labor laws? Surely, you expect something from them. Being willing and able to walk away is not the same thing as saying you have zero expectations.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        1. I expect to get paid for every hour I work. 2. I addressed the other one. When the pay/bullshit ratio goes the wrong way, I leave.
eganist 4y ago
Better phrased than what I could've done, thanks.
mbesto 4y ago
> Giving out millions in severance, while commendable, isn't a personal sacrifice. Do y'all expect them to cut their arm off? I'm not defending pc but the OP's comment wreaks of corporate SJW. > but I think what they're looking for is some indication that the leadership has personally sacrificed something equal to or exceeding what they expected out of their subordinates Millions (and billions) come out of their valuation as a result. It's not like they're getting whisked away on a golden parachute.
- eganist 4y ago
  > Millions (and billions) come out of their valuation as a result. It's not like they're getting whisked away on a golden parachute. It's the exact opposite. They're more likely to stem the bloodletting of their valuation with layoffs extending runway or boosting profitabiliy than see it get worse.
- bumby 4y ago
  >Do y'all expect them to cut their arm off? That depends. Are they expecting their subordinates to cut their arms off? I do think a lot of discussion seems to point to how we, as a society, have adjusted our social norms about what's expected out of leadership.
  - mbesto 4y ago
    > Are they expecting their subordinates to cut their arms off? Do you expect company management and subordinates to have symmetrical work obligations?
    - bumby 4y ago
      Not at all. But we seem okay with management having a larger upside, given how the pay structure ratio has continued to evolve over the last few decades. I think it's only reasonable that, with outside rewards, management expects to take on outsized risk. It feels like the social norms have shifted to accept one but not the other. In other words, we're only supportive of an asymmetrical risk:reward ratio that favors management.

by bumby 4y ago

scarface74 4y ago

The company is not a charity. I expect no more from a company than to pay me for every hour I work. I can leave anytime I want and they can let me go anytime that the relationship is not mutually beneficial. I keep a go to hell fund, an updated resume, an updated career document, a strong network of former coworkers, managers, and external recruiters and make sure my skillset is in line with the market.

bumby 4y ago
But I'm assuming you expect management to be good leaders, no? I don't think "for profit" and "good leadership" are mutually exclusive.
- scarface74 4y ago
  I expect nothing from managers. When the pay/bullshit ratio starts going in the wrong direction, I have just as much agency to leave as they do to let me go.
  - bumby 4y ago
    >I expect nothing from managers. You don't expect them to pay you? Treat you with respect? To observe labor laws? Surely, you expect something from them. Being willing and able to walk away is not the same thing as saying you have zero expectations.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      1. I expect to get paid for every hour I work. 2. I addressed the other one. When the pay/bullshit ratio goes the wrong way, I leave.

eganist 4y ago

Better phrased than what I could've done, thanks.

mbesto 4y ago

> Giving out millions in severance, while commendable, isn't a personal sacrifice. Do y'all expect them to cut their arm off? I'm not defending pc but the OP's comment wreaks of corporate SJW. > but I think what they're looking for is some indication that the leadership has personally sacrificed something equal to or exceeding what they expected out of their subordinates Millions (and billions) come out of their valuation as a result. It's not like they're getting whisked away on a golden parachute.

eganist 4y ago
> Millions (and billions) come out of their valuation as a result. It's not like they're getting whisked away on a golden parachute. It's the exact opposite. They're more likely to stem the bloodletting of their valuation with layoffs extending runway or boosting profitabiliy than see it get worse.
bumby 4y ago
>Do y'all expect them to cut their arm off? That depends. Are they expecting their subordinates to cut their arms off? I do think a lot of discussion seems to point to how we, as a society, have adjusted our social norms about what's expected out of leadership.
- mbesto 4y ago
  > Are they expecting their subordinates to cut their arms off? Do you expect company management and subordinates to have symmetrical work obligations?
  - bumby 4y ago
    Not at all. But we seem okay with management having a larger upside, given how the pay structure ratio has continued to evolve over the last few decades. I think it's only reasonable that, with outside rewards, management expects to take on outsized risk. It feels like the social norms have shifted to accept one but not the other. In other words, we're only supportive of an asymmetrical risk:reward ratio that favors management.