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Except we can back up the effect electrification has on transportation. It's only 'just a label' if you're ideologically opposed. Yes, the labels can be overu

Except we can back up the effect electrification has on transportation. It's only 'just a label' if you're ideologically opposed. Yes, the labels can be overused, but if the discussion is only going to be about labels, why even bother? The underlying facts are pretty easy to work with.

lm28469 4y ago
> Except we can back up the effect electrification has on transportation. Making an aberration 20% more efficient doesn't make it less of an aberration The rebound effect kills all these efficiency claims anyways, you're decreasing the effect per unit not the overall effect
- Tade0 4y ago
  Distance travelled per driver peaked in the EU and US in the early 00s along with the sharp increase in oil prices back then and has been in steady decline ever since. The only additional congestion you're seeing is due to increased urbanization.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    > Distance travelled per driver peaked in the EU and US in the early 00s Yet there are more cars than ever: https://www.statista.com/statistics/281134/number-of-vehicles-in-use-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/281134/number-of-vehicle... Even if you were right you'd make my point, we use them less but have more of them, since ~50% of a car's environment impact is done before it even leaves the factory, you end up with a net negative At the end of the day you're displacing 70kg of meat with 2+ tonnes of metal, electric or not it's an aberration also: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre...
    - elihu 4y ago
      > Even if you were right you'd make my point, we use them less but have more of them, since ~50% of a car's environment impact is done before it even leaves the factory, you end up with a net negative I'm pretty sure that's not true, unless you're using some definition of "environmental impact" that puts very little weight on the climate impact of CO2 emissions from burning petroleum.
    - Tade0 4y ago
      I don't understand getting worked up about modes of transport, so allow me to just correct you on a few things: > Yet there are more cars than ever: Most of that growth is in China, where the car ownership rate is less than half of what it is in Europe, not to mention the US. Tends to happen when a country crosses a certain GDP-per-capita threshold. > Even if you were right you'd make my point, we use them less but have more of them, since ~50% of a car's environment impact is done before it even leaves the factory, you end up with a net negative It's actually closer to 15%. Here's a more detailed look: https://www.greenncap.com/press-releases/lca-how-sustainable-is-your-car/ https://www.greenncap.com/press-releases/lca-how-sustainable... > also: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre... I see this mentioned here and there, but so far air pollution measurements don't follow. Even the most congested of cities rarely exceed particulate emissions limits provided other sources are taken care of. This quote is significant: “Tyres are rapidly eclipsing the tailpipe as a major source of emissions from vehicles,” said Nick Molden, at Emissions Analytics, the leading independent emissions testing company that did the research. “Tailpipes are now so clean for pollutants that, if you were starting out afresh, you wouldn’t even bother regulating them.” So the real story is not that car tyres are so dirty, but that tailpipes are so clean.

lm28469 4y ago

> Except we can back up the effect electrification has on transportation. Making an aberration 20% more efficient doesn't make it less of an aberration The rebound effect kills all these efficiency claims anyways, you're decreasing the effect per unit not the overall effect

Tade0 4y ago
Distance travelled per driver peaked in the EU and US in the early 00s along with the sharp increase in oil prices back then and has been in steady decline ever since. The only additional congestion you're seeing is due to increased urbanization.
- lm28469 4y ago
  > Distance travelled per driver peaked in the EU and US in the early 00s Yet there are more cars than ever: https://www.statista.com/statistics/281134/number-of-vehicles-in-use-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/281134/number-of-vehicle... Even if you were right you'd make my point, we use them less but have more of them, since ~50% of a car's environment impact is done before it even leaves the factory, you end up with a net negative At the end of the day you're displacing 70kg of meat with 2+ tonnes of metal, electric or not it's an aberration also: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre...
  - elihu 4y ago
    > Even if you were right you'd make my point, we use them less but have more of them, since ~50% of a car's environment impact is done before it even leaves the factory, you end up with a net negative I'm pretty sure that's not true, unless you're using some definition of "environmental impact" that puts very little weight on the climate impact of CO2 emissions from burning petroleum.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    I don't understand getting worked up about modes of transport, so allow me to just correct you on a few things: > Yet there are more cars than ever: Most of that growth is in China, where the car ownership rate is less than half of what it is in Europe, not to mention the US. Tends to happen when a country crosses a certain GDP-per-capita threshold. > Even if you were right you'd make my point, we use them less but have more of them, since ~50% of a car's environment impact is done before it even leaves the factory, you end up with a net negative It's actually closer to 15%. Here's a more detailed look: https://www.greenncap.com/press-releases/lca-how-sustainable-is-your-car/ https://www.greenncap.com/press-releases/lca-how-sustainable... > also: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre... I see this mentioned here and there, but so far air pollution measurements don't follow. Even the most congested of cities rarely exceed particulate emissions limits provided other sources are taken care of. This quote is significant: “Tyres are rapidly eclipsing the tailpipe as a major source of emissions from vehicles,” said Nick Molden, at Emissions Analytics, the leading independent emissions testing company that did the research. “Tailpipes are now so clean for pollutants that, if you were starting out afresh, you wouldn’t even bother regulating them.” So the real story is not that car tyres are so dirty, but that tailpipes are so clean.