5 ms·

Isn’t it mandatory to pay holiday accrued? Because it’s been, well, accrued…

by antihero 4y ago

shaftoe 4y ago
No. It can say otherwise in your employee handbook.
- ehnto 4y ago
  It should be in your contract, which means it was up for negotiation. Unless that's what you mean. While there's such high demand for tech workers, I would expect to see people being smarter with their contracts and picking up on things like that, start setting precedents. At the moment the precedents are still heavily employee biased, but you ask for whatever you want in your contract during negotiations. Negotiate your sick pay, negotiate your PTO, negotiate your vesting schedules and exit terms, negotiate your hours and time in lieu policies. Negotiate your Intellectual Property terms. That one is super common to see lopsided toward the employer. We don't have unions or award rates, so we also miss out on some of those protections, hence why we need to make sure it's in the contract. Even the nicest, fairest business owners I've worked for will start with industry standard contracts that do their best to shaft you, because it's industry standard and they don't see it as lopsided. But I've never had trouble negotiating for this stuff to be made clearer and fairer.
  - 0x0000000 4y ago
    > It should be in your contract, which means it was up for negotiation. Generally, employees in America do not have contracts. While plenty of things are open for negotiation during the offer/hiring process, I doubt you'll get an exception to a corporate policy on paying out on PTO if it's not something they already do. That said, IME, accrued PTO has always been paid on departure (voluntary or not). For this reason, most of the places I've worked heavily encourage (or even require) taking PTO, because it's a liability on their books.
    - ehnto 4y ago
      > Generally, employees in America do not have contracts. Is that true? The company surely has terms for you, like expected working hours, terms about your sick leave, performance and health terms, out of office expectations, intellectual property disclosures and NDAs? Non-compete clauses? When does all that become binding if not through a contract?
      - khuey 4y ago
        A typical American tech worker's "contract" covers IP assignment and NDA. None of the other stuff is legally binding, and either side is free to change it or walk at any time.
        ehnto 4y ago
        I wonder if this is partly why upper-end salaries get so sky-high when compared to other country's tech sectors. It might be accounting for a level of risk that you could be cut off at any moment, especially in at-will states.
    - sgtnoodle 4y ago
      It seems common in the tech world, though? Amusingly, my current contract is from when the company was small, and explicitly guarantees provided lunch.
  - deelowe 4y ago
    > It should be in your contract, which means it was up for negotiation I've never seen this in the US. The only things typically up for negotiation is the sign on bonus/equity and base pay. If you start trying to negotiate vacations and holidays, you're going to look pretty silly.
    - ehnto 4y ago
      I'm doing my best to understand this and be empathetic. Best of my brief research you haven't got any law bound entitlements so whatever the "status quo" is has been set by employers. So what I'm understanding here is that it's not even an agreement, it's just an understanding? Trying my best not to be inflammatory, as I understand this is a cultural thing for the US. But in a country with so little workers rights and entitlements, that high end workers are not even able to protect themselves with contracts seems silly. > The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) does not require payment for time not worked, such as vacations, sick leave or federal or other holidays. These benefits are matters of agreement between an employer and an employee (or the employee's representative). https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/vacation_leave https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/vacation_leave
      - differentview97 4y ago
        I think the concept is, you protect yourself with the cash you earn. Similarly to SW contractors in EU.
    - jaywalk 4y ago
      What? Negotiating PTO is pretty standard in my (US) view. I know plenty of people who've done it.
    - sgtnoodle 4y ago
      I vaguely recall striking out some sentences I didn't like, and initialing it. My current employer didn't mind.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      > The only things typically up for negotiation is the sign on bonus/equity and base pay. If you start trying to negotiate vacations and holidays, you're going to look pretty silly. Everything is up for negotiation. Just depends whether or not you have options. I have seen PTO negotiated in the US.
zrail 4y ago
That's true in less than half of US states.
- antihero 4y ago
  - solardev 4y ago
  - scarface74 4y ago
    And on top of that we have to suffer in the tech industry with twice or more the average salary of non Americans. The horror! In any major city in the US, a software engineer is probably making in the top 10% of area and there is little excuse to not have 3-6 months savings.
    - pedrosorio 4y ago
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Should I be expected to care about the plight of those in percentiles below me?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        Tesl 4y ago
        Yes
      - pb7 4y ago
        I witness plenty of misery every time I visit Europe. It reminds me that most places are about the same averaged out. Reminder that the US has the highest median disposable income in the world, not just the highest top percentiles.
chamblin 4y ago
For what it's worth, Stripe is the only place I've ever worked that did not pay out accrued PTO. It does so only in jurisdictions where it is legally required.
- brantonb 4y ago
  My company switched from PTO to “unlimited time away” to avoid paying out accrued PTO upon departure. Their original home state didn’t require it, so they didn’t. But then they acquired some companies in states that did require it and also let us all work remotely. It was cheaper for them to drop formal PTO and replace it with hand-wavy “time away”.
  - stephen_g 4y ago
    Wow. Can’t do that here (Australia) - I think to have an unlimited leave policy, you’d still have all employees accrue annual leave (PTO) at the legal rate, and then just let employees take free leave once their annual leave balance reached zero. Any balance you have when you leave (or are made redundant) then has to be paid out.
patch_cable 4y ago
It is not in most of the US.
shagie 4y ago
It varies based on state. https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-laws-by-state/ https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-l... In California, accrued vacation is part of wages and must be paid out as part of wages. However, unlimited PTO policies typically don't accrue vacation. In Washington, it's "read your contract." If your contract doesn't say that they pay out accrued PTO upon separation, they don't.
bombcar 4y ago
It depends and some places go to "unlimited" for this reason, or combine sick and PTO and other stuff. The smart businesses would just actually bank the dollar amounts and not worry about it, but those are rare.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  This is exactly why companies go to unlimited PTO. They don't want the accrual on their balance sheets.

Isn’t it mandatory to pay holiday accrued? Because it’s been, well, accrued…

shaftoe 4y ago

No. It can say otherwise in your employee handbook.

ehnto 4y ago
It should be in your contract, which means it was up for negotiation. Unless that's what you mean. While there's such high demand for tech workers, I would expect to see people being smarter with their contracts and picking up on things like that, start setting precedents. At the moment the precedents are still heavily employee biased, but you ask for whatever you want in your contract during negotiations. Negotiate your sick pay, negotiate your PTO, negotiate your vesting schedules and exit terms, negotiate your hours and time in lieu policies. Negotiate your Intellectual Property terms. That one is super common to see lopsided toward the employer. We don't have unions or award rates, so we also miss out on some of those protections, hence why we need to make sure it's in the contract. Even the nicest, fairest business owners I've worked for will start with industry standard contracts that do their best to shaft you, because it's industry standard and they don't see it as lopsided. But I've never had trouble negotiating for this stuff to be made clearer and fairer.
- 0x0000000 4y ago
  > It should be in your contract, which means it was up for negotiation. Generally, employees in America do not have contracts. While plenty of things are open for negotiation during the offer/hiring process, I doubt you'll get an exception to a corporate policy on paying out on PTO if it's not something they already do. That said, IME, accrued PTO has always been paid on departure (voluntary or not). For this reason, most of the places I've worked heavily encourage (or even require) taking PTO, because it's a liability on their books.
  - ehnto 4y ago
    > Generally, employees in America do not have contracts. Is that true? The company surely has terms for you, like expected working hours, terms about your sick leave, performance and health terms, out of office expectations, intellectual property disclosures and NDAs? Non-compete clauses? When does all that become binding if not through a contract?
    - khuey 4y ago
      A typical American tech worker's "contract" covers IP assignment and NDA. None of the other stuff is legally binding, and either side is free to change it or walk at any time.
      - ehnto 4y ago
        I wonder if this is partly why upper-end salaries get so sky-high when compared to other country's tech sectors. It might be accounting for a level of risk that you could be cut off at any moment, especially in at-will states.
  - sgtnoodle 4y ago
    It seems common in the tech world, though? Amusingly, my current contract is from when the company was small, and explicitly guarantees provided lunch.
- deelowe 4y ago
  > It should be in your contract, which means it was up for negotiation I've never seen this in the US. The only things typically up for negotiation is the sign on bonus/equity and base pay. If you start trying to negotiate vacations and holidays, you're going to look pretty silly.
  - ehnto 4y ago
    I'm doing my best to understand this and be empathetic. Best of my brief research you haven't got any law bound entitlements so whatever the "status quo" is has been set by employers. So what I'm understanding here is that it's not even an agreement, it's just an understanding? Trying my best not to be inflammatory, as I understand this is a cultural thing for the US. But in a country with so little workers rights and entitlements, that high end workers are not even able to protect themselves with contracts seems silly. > The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) does not require payment for time not worked, such as vacations, sick leave or federal or other holidays. These benefits are matters of agreement between an employer and an employee (or the employee's representative). https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/vacation_leave https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/vacation_leave
    - differentview97 4y ago
      I think the concept is, you protect yourself with the cash you earn. Similarly to SW contractors in EU.
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    What? Negotiating PTO is pretty standard in my (US) view. I know plenty of people who've done it.
  - sgtnoodle 4y ago
    I vaguely recall striking out some sentences I didn't like, and initialing it. My current employer didn't mind.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    > The only things typically up for negotiation is the sign on bonus/equity and base pay. If you start trying to negotiate vacations and holidays, you're going to look pretty silly. Everything is up for negotiation. Just depends whether or not you have options. I have seen PTO negotiated in the US.

zrail 4y ago

That's true in less than half of US states.

antihero 4y ago
- solardev 4y ago
- scarface74 4y ago
  And on top of that we have to suffer in the tech industry with twice or more the average salary of non Americans. The horror! In any major city in the US, a software engineer is probably making in the top 10% of area and there is little excuse to not have 3-6 months savings.
  - pedrosorio 4y ago
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Should I be expected to care about the plight of those in percentiles below me?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - Tesl 4y ago
        Yes
    - pb7 4y ago
      I witness plenty of misery every time I visit Europe. It reminds me that most places are about the same averaged out. Reminder that the US has the highest median disposable income in the world, not just the highest top percentiles.

chamblin 4y ago

For what it's worth, Stripe is the only place I've ever worked that did not pay out accrued PTO. It does so only in jurisdictions where it is legally required.

brantonb 4y ago
My company switched from PTO to “unlimited time away” to avoid paying out accrued PTO upon departure. Their original home state didn’t require it, so they didn’t. But then they acquired some companies in states that did require it and also let us all work remotely. It was cheaper for them to drop formal PTO and replace it with hand-wavy “time away”.
- stephen_g 4y ago
  Wow. Can’t do that here (Australia) - I think to have an unlimited leave policy, you’d still have all employees accrue annual leave (PTO) at the legal rate, and then just let employees take free leave once their annual leave balance reached zero. Any balance you have when you leave (or are made redundant) then has to be paid out.

patch_cable 4y ago

It is not in most of the US.

shagie 4y ago

It varies based on state. https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-laws-by-state/ https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-l... In California, accrued vacation is part of wages and must be paid out as part of wages. However, unlimited PTO policies typically don't accrue vacation. In Washington, it's "read your contract." If your contract doesn't say that they pay out accrued PTO upon separation, they don't.

bombcar 4y ago

It depends and some places go to "unlimited" for this reason, or combine sick and PTO and other stuff. The smart businesses would just actually bank the dollar amounts and not worry about it, but those are rare.

jeffbee 4y ago
This is exactly why companies go to unlimited PTO. They don't want the accrual on their balance sheets.