3 ms·

I can't help but cheat in this game, the source is there, in well written javascript, after a while, I go, "well I will just get over this next hump and give my

by somat 4y ago

I can't help but cheat in this game, the source is there, in well written javascript, after a while, I go, "well I will just get over this next hump and give myself a few dozen dingleberrys(or whatever resource is next in the techtree)", after all the only person I am hurting is myself... And it is a clicker game... The lowest and most insidious form of gaming. Honestly at this point I see it as a feature.

iNic 4y ago
What I love is that this exact behavior is one of the minor problems of advanced AI. How can we make sure that a sufficiently advanced AI doesn't just edit it's reward center? Usually called wire-heading or reward hacking. Humans do it too :)
- redox99 4y ago
  That's basically just a matter of the inputs and outputs of the AI.
  - iNic 4y ago
    If the AI has sufficient "real life" access, think a robot body, then it can do wire-heading. Assuming it is smarter than us, and we have thought of this idea - it will also think of this idea. Now it doesn't have a reason anymore to do anything else (except maybe kill all humans so that we don't stop it from wire-heading).
  - PartiallyTyped 4y ago
    Not necessarily; the AI could figure out how to change the world - without achieving the task - such that the RF is maximized.
    - manholio 4y ago
      Like in the NI case, it's conceivable that only the most rudimentary artificial intellects will fall pray to this self hacking. Trully intelligent agents will be capable of introspection and self-defined goals and rewards. You know, just like a certain species of ape, hard wired for banana maximization, the descendants of which sometimes dream of visiting Mars.
      - PartiallyTyped 4y ago
        And yet said species is notoriously known for its inability to make long term plans, is easily controlled by its own libido and dopamine circuits. Actually, if we are being honest with ourselves, that ape is constantly falling prey to its own capacity to adjust its goals. Take for example the issues that come with porn addiction; the issues are a consequence of dopamine seeking behaviour where the person keeps seeking more and more extreme ways to satisfy their urges; ie hedonistic adaptation. Even what you mentioned, dreaming of visiting mars is to some degree a goal motivated and mediated by dopaminergic circuits; novelty, exploration - like sex - feed dopamine circuits. I can recommend the book "The molecule of more". Introspection is very limited and can be even motivated by the circuits themselves; the person can only achieve an outline of their actions to change their software, but can't inspect and manipulate individual synapses. In the same vein, a software can not inspect itself and predict its own outputs and modify them at runtime etc etc.
        Enginerrrd 4y ago
        Sure, but if I was able to modify the type of activity that gave me my dopamine rewards, I'd use it to reward longer term planning and growth type of activity, more than the ape stuff.
- mellavora 4y ago
  Isn't that what the cocaine is for?
metafunctor 4y ago
That's how I ascended in NetHack the first time — reading the source code. There were quite a few things there that I don't think I would've ever discovered otherwise.
vanderZwan 4y ago
> after all the only person I am hurting is myself... And it is a clicker game... I would argue the "hurting" part of that first sentence is being compelled to spend hours playing a clicker game that you would have liked to spend elsewhere. At least that's how clicker games work for me: I don't even enjoy my time playing them, they just hook me against the wishes of 99% of my brain activity (but apparently not the 1% of my brain that decides where I spend my time)
pessimizer 4y ago
The funny thing about Cookie Clicker (not UP) is that getting over the next hump doesn't change the game at all. A few words change, a few colors change, an old meter fills more often, but a new meter appears. You're not even hurting yourself.
- burnished 4y ago
  Well, there's probably a period in there where the grandmas still experience pain in a way that you or I would recognize, they're probably being hurt then.

by somat 4y ago

iNic 4y ago

What I love is that this exact behavior is one of the minor problems of advanced AI. How can we make sure that a sufficiently advanced AI doesn't just edit it's reward center? Usually called wire-heading or reward hacking. Humans do it too :)

redox99 4y ago
That's basically just a matter of the inputs and outputs of the AI.
- iNic 4y ago
  If the AI has sufficient "real life" access, think a robot body, then it can do wire-heading. Assuming it is smarter than us, and we have thought of this idea - it will also think of this idea. Now it doesn't have a reason anymore to do anything else (except maybe kill all humans so that we don't stop it from wire-heading).
- PartiallyTyped 4y ago
  Not necessarily; the AI could figure out how to change the world - without achieving the task - such that the RF is maximized.
  - manholio 4y ago
    Like in the NI case, it's conceivable that only the most rudimentary artificial intellects will fall pray to this self hacking. Trully intelligent agents will be capable of introspection and self-defined goals and rewards. You know, just like a certain species of ape, hard wired for banana maximization, the descendants of which sometimes dream of visiting Mars.
    - PartiallyTyped 4y ago
      And yet said species is notoriously known for its inability to make long term plans, is easily controlled by its own libido and dopamine circuits. Actually, if we are being honest with ourselves, that ape is constantly falling prey to its own capacity to adjust its goals. Take for example the issues that come with porn addiction; the issues are a consequence of dopamine seeking behaviour where the person keeps seeking more and more extreme ways to satisfy their urges; ie hedonistic adaptation. Even what you mentioned, dreaming of visiting mars is to some degree a goal motivated and mediated by dopaminergic circuits; novelty, exploration - like sex - feed dopamine circuits. I can recommend the book "The molecule of more". Introspection is very limited and can be even motivated by the circuits themselves; the person can only achieve an outline of their actions to change their software, but can't inspect and manipulate individual synapses. In the same vein, a software can not inspect itself and predict its own outputs and modify them at runtime etc etc.
      - Enginerrrd 4y ago
        Sure, but if I was able to modify the type of activity that gave me my dopamine rewards, I'd use it to reward longer term planning and growth type of activity, more than the ape stuff.
mellavora 4y ago
Isn't that what the cocaine is for?

metafunctor 4y ago

That's how I ascended in NetHack the first time — reading the source code. There were quite a few things there that I don't think I would've ever discovered otherwise.

vanderZwan 4y ago

> after all the only person I am hurting is myself... And it is a clicker game... I would argue the "hurting" part of that first sentence is being compelled to spend hours playing a clicker game that you would have liked to spend elsewhere. At least that's how clicker games work for me: I don't even enjoy my time playing them, they just hook me against the wishes of 99% of my brain activity (but apparently not the 1% of my brain that decides where I spend my time)

pessimizer 4y ago

The funny thing about Cookie Clicker (not UP) is that getting over the next hump doesn't change the game at all. A few words change, a few colors change, an old meter fills more often, but a new meter appears. You're not even hurting yourself.

burnished 4y ago
Well, there's probably a period in there where the grandmas still experience pain in a way that you or I would recognize, they're probably being hurt then.