3 ms·

For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. I only noticed when I became intimate with a person f

by worik 4y ago

For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. I only noticed when I became intimate with a person from a minority race and saw how they were treated. That is when I noticed I live in a racist society. I love the economist. Their writing is so good, they are biased but know it, and acknowledge it. Biased, but not bigoted. nYet this article misses the point, IMO, or racial quotas in professional schools. They have the liberal individualistic bias, and have not noticed that one. It is their water (I am a liberal myself, but I have had that particular bias removed by my experiences.) Here (Aotearoa) the point of quotas is not to allow some groups the same access to the privilege of the profession, but it is to help the consumers of professional services get what they need. For doctors, lawyers, architects, accountants (yes) etcetera being from a similar community as your clients is very helpful for your clients. This is not a benefit to the individual professional, it is a benefit to the community. There is a secondary benefit to the professions themselves. A cultural milieu helps bring new ideas forward. Whether or not the system in the USA is fit for purpose or not, I do not know. But when deciding I hope the American judges think not, only, of benefit to the individuals but the wider effects on our communities.

tarsinge 4y ago
I think what you describe is indeed a classist society and not a racist one. Maybe what you lack to see through it is the experience of a cultural milieu with different skin colors. I have studied, worked and am friend with a lot of people with North Africa origins, usually from wealthy families, that are now doctors, engineers, academics, … and clients mostly don’t care because we belong to the same class, what matters is how we dress, how we talk, and the countless other things that signal we are of the same class. Skin color is very a strong correlation with poverty, the latter being the true causality.
- worik 4y ago
  Class and race are both social constructs (class is not an economic construct, as the Economist probably would prefer) so they are mixed up and confounded. Highly correlated here.
Manuel_D 4y ago
If my customers are racist and I know they'd balk at working with people of a particular race, am I justified in refusing to hire employees of said race? After all I'm just giving customers what they need to get service. No, not at all. In fact, this rationale was a trope for racist practices around the world. Japanese bath houses would refuse service to foreigners claiming doing so would drive away japanese customers. White employers in the US would refuse to hire Black staff reasoning that customers wouldn't respect them. I read Ben Carson's memoir (I do not endorse his views, as a disclaimer) and in it he details an episode where a white patient refused to be treated by a black physician. His boss told the patient that she'd get the same excellent quality of care that she'd get from any other physician and wouldn't supply an alternative to Carson. As a Latin person, I'd feel perfectly comfortable with a Latin person refusing service from a Black, Asian, white, Jewish, or doctor what whatever category you pick. Also, as a member of a "marginalized" group I can say the Economist is spot on with the fact that class far more salient in real life than ethnic difference. There's plenty of Latin people that fit the image of a disadvantaged Latin immigrant, struggling to make ends meet. Certainly a greater proportion than whites, but there's plenty of us that aren't underprivileged compared to your average white person. The distinction between a poor Latin immigrant and an American born Latin tech worker like me is far, far greater than the difference between me and the average white tech worker and the poor Latin immigrant with, say, a poor Ukrainian refugee.
rayiner 4y ago
Do you live in the U.S.? Because, as a minority myself, I'm really at a loss to understand what you mean by "[we] live in a racist society." Also, what the hell is this supposed to mean: > For doctors, lawyers, architects, accountants (yes) etcetera being from a similar community as your clients is very helpful for your clients. Most folks at Harvard law are going to go to corporate law firms, where most of the clients are rich white people. Are you suggesting that as a Bangladeshi I'm less helpful to my clients because I'm not from a similar community? Is a lawyer from a less affluent part of Appalachia less helpful? I can at least understand the justification that quotas are needed to allow access for historically oppressed groups. But the "diversity" justification seems like straight up racism to me. Are we supposed to be the same or are we not?
- vinay427 4y ago
  They mentioned “here” to be Aotearoa (also known as New Zealand), so it’s likely they currently live there.
- worik 4y ago
  > Most folks at Harvard law are going to go to corporate law firms, where most of the clients are rich white people. Are you suggesting that as a Bangladeshi I'm less helpful to my clients because I'm not from a similar community? Is a lawyer from a less affluent part of Appalachia less helpful? Yes. Somebody from the same background as you will have a better chance of connecting, having you understand their priors, having you understand their idoms of speech. Many more things. It does not make you useless to other people, nor make me useless to Bangladeshi. Also when applied in individual cases it can be misleading and confusing. It is a community effect. For a very confidant client, or a lawyer who is on the autistic spectrum, it matters much less. But for the Bangladeshi just dropped in from Sirajganj whit some money to invest but few contacts it could be a life saver.
DeathArrow 4y ago
>For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. And what was the society answer to racism? More racism but directed towards groups that were deemed "offenders". Somehow, some people decreed that thare is "bad" racism and that there is "good" racism. That there is "bad" discrimination and that there is "good" discrimination. This is obviously false and we should return to the situation where all people have equal rights.
- Akronymus 4y ago
  "Good" racism is breeding resentment and thus more bad racism. Reminds me of a certain quote... "Every animal is equal, some are just more equal than others".
- worik 4y ago
  >>For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. >And what was the society answer to racism? More racism but directed towards groups that were deemed "offenders". Racism is not just "racial prejudice" it is "Power imbalances based on racial prejudice". Which is why "reverse racism" is not.

by worik 4y ago

tarsinge 4y ago

I think what you describe is indeed a classist society and not a racist one. Maybe what you lack to see through it is the experience of a cultural milieu with different skin colors. I have studied, worked and am friend with a lot of people with North Africa origins, usually from wealthy families, that are now doctors, engineers, academics, … and clients mostly don’t care because we belong to the same class, what matters is how we dress, how we talk, and the countless other things that signal we are of the same class. Skin color is very a strong correlation with poverty, the latter being the true causality.

worik 4y ago
Class and race are both social constructs (class is not an economic construct, as the Economist probably would prefer) so they are mixed up and confounded. Highly correlated here.

Manuel_D 4y ago

If my customers are racist and I know they'd balk at working with people of a particular race, am I justified in refusing to hire employees of said race? After all I'm just giving customers what they need to get service. No, not at all. In fact, this rationale was a trope for racist practices around the world. Japanese bath houses would refuse service to foreigners claiming doing so would drive away japanese customers. White employers in the US would refuse to hire Black staff reasoning that customers wouldn't respect them. I read Ben Carson's memoir (I do not endorse his views, as a disclaimer) and in it he details an episode where a white patient refused to be treated by a black physician. His boss told the patient that she'd get the same excellent quality of care that she'd get from any other physician and wouldn't supply an alternative to Carson. As a Latin person, I'd feel perfectly comfortable with a Latin person refusing service from a Black, Asian, white, Jewish, or doctor what whatever category you pick. Also, as a member of a "marginalized" group I can say the Economist is spot on with the fact that class far more salient in real life than ethnic difference. There's plenty of Latin people that fit the image of a disadvantaged Latin immigrant, struggling to make ends meet. Certainly a greater proportion than whites, but there's plenty of us that aren't underprivileged compared to your average white person. The distinction between a poor Latin immigrant and an American born Latin tech worker like me is far, far greater than the difference between me and the average white tech worker and the poor Latin immigrant with, say, a poor Ukrainian refugee.

rayiner 4y ago

Do you live in the U.S.? Because, as a minority myself, I'm really at a loss to understand what you mean by "[we] live in a racist society." Also, what the hell is this supposed to mean: > For doctors, lawyers, architects, accountants (yes) etcetera being from a similar community as your clients is very helpful for your clients. Most folks at Harvard law are going to go to corporate law firms, where most of the clients are rich white people. Are you suggesting that as a Bangladeshi I'm less helpful to my clients because I'm not from a similar community? Is a lawyer from a less affluent part of Appalachia less helpful? I can at least understand the justification that quotas are needed to allow access for historically oppressed groups. But the "diversity" justification seems like straight up racism to me. Are we supposed to be the same or are we not?

vinay427 4y ago
They mentioned “here” to be Aotearoa (also known as New Zealand), so it’s likely they currently live there.
worik 4y ago
> Most folks at Harvard law are going to go to corporate law firms, where most of the clients are rich white people. Are you suggesting that as a Bangladeshi I'm less helpful to my clients because I'm not from a similar community? Is a lawyer from a less affluent part of Appalachia less helpful? Yes. Somebody from the same background as you will have a better chance of connecting, having you understand their priors, having you understand their idoms of speech. Many more things. It does not make you useless to other people, nor make me useless to Bangladeshi. Also when applied in individual cases it can be misleading and confusing. It is a community effect. For a very confidant client, or a lawyer who is on the autistic spectrum, it matters much less. But for the Bangladeshi just dropped in from Sirajganj whit some money to invest but few contacts it could be a life saver.

DeathArrow 4y ago

>For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. And what was the society answer to racism? More racism but directed towards groups that were deemed "offenders". Somehow, some people decreed that thare is "bad" racism and that there is "good" racism. That there is "bad" discrimination and that there is "good" discrimination. This is obviously false and we should return to the situation where all people have equal rights.

Akronymus 4y ago
"Good" racism is breeding resentment and thus more bad racism. Reminds me of a certain quote... "Every animal is equal, some are just more equal than others".
worik 4y ago
>>For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. >And what was the society answer to racism? More racism but directed towards groups that were deemed "offenders". Racism is not just "racial prejudice" it is "Power imbalances based on racial prejudice". Which is why "reverse racism" is not.