6 ms·

FBI: Carrier IQ files used for "law enforcement purposes"

215 points by morisy 15y ago

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
r00fus 15y ago
Why should the government run massive data centers to crawl your every move when they can get you to run a hidden app to do the pre-filtering for them (and give them keystroke/touch-level access on demand in realtime)
sev 15y ago
Excellent, remove the fault from the corporations and give even more power. Whatever happened to warrants?
- redrobot5050 15y ago
  Where did the article indicate that Law Enforcement didn't need a warrant to access the Carrier IQ data?
  - sp332 15y ago
    I remember a time when they had to get a warrant before logging your information. Now with Carrier ID and Google and Facebook, the information is already collected, and they only need a warrant to access the years and years of detailed historical information. It's quite a big difference.
    - redrobot5050 15y ago
      Carrier IQ isn't used by all carriers (Verizon opts out, I believe) and the data transmitted is anonymous. I admit there is a risk with the data profiles being assembled, and being done so with ease not seen before, but the carrier IQ findings seem to be bad tech reporting and fear mongering. It really seems to be "not a big deal". I am all for advocating privacy and a discussion about user's rights -- but I would like it if both sides left their hysteria at the door.
      - cmdrreiki 15y ago
        anonymous data does not exist
      - meatsock 15y ago
        whether or not they opt out, its detected on my vz device using the carrier iq detector app.
  - sev 15y ago
    Carrier IQ is very much like wire tapping. Wire tapping requires a warrant[1]. What about warrant for Carrier IQ? That was my point. [1] Not sure, but I think it did at one point or still does. Maybe some bill or act made that void, not sure.
evgen 15y ago
Gotta love the paranoid nutjobs jumping straight to "the FBI is using Carrier IQ to spy on us" when an equally likely explanation buried in paragraph three is that if the FBI is conducting an investigation of Carrier IQ for possible violation of federal wiretap laws then the same data would be withheld. Let's see now... Al Franken, who recently made some loud noises about Carrier IQ and sent a public letter to the company asking for information about what they are doing, sits on the Senate Judiciary committee. The committee that has direct oversight of the FBI would be? Anyone? Bueller?
- ck2 15y ago
  It's far more likely it was for the CIA since phones are exported with that code in place. The warrantless domestic spying is just a bonus for them.
  - waitwhat 15y ago
    phones are exported with that code in place They are? (I hadn't been following this that closely but...) My understanding was that the issue was American carriers customising the OEM software and selling that kit to their own users. See, for example, "So far, all of the major British providers have denied using the tool on their handsets" -- http://www.engadget.com/2011/12/05/european-regulators-set-sites-on-carrier-iq-rootkit-scandal-goe/ http://www.engadget.com/2011/12/05/european-regulators-set-s...
    - toyg 15y ago
      denied using, not denied shipping. Most likely the software is there, but non-US vendors (and law enforcement agencies -- not everyone is as clued up and as resourceful as the FBI) simply don't exploit it.
      - waitwhat 15y ago
        "Most likely the software is there". Do you have any actual evidence for this? Or do you just enjoy throwing around wild accusations?
theorique 15y ago
Thank goodness. I was worried that they might be misused. I feel safe now. Go to sleep, citizens. All is well. All is under control.
smokeyj 15y ago
A profile is being generated about you, slowly but surely. It starts out as a vague picture, but the more you communicate, the the more clearly you define yourself. It includes your political affiliations, interests you display online, who your friends are, your every movement, your sexual preferences, close secrets, and anything else that can be gathered about you. These profiles are stored in a government database that allow contractors to test threat-detection algorithms to identify potential threats to national security -- aka, status quo. These reports will be sent to the appropriate LEO to summon and indefinitely detain you. You will be sent to a secret prison. You will not have a court date. Get ready for the New America. Edit - Yes, the hyperbole is strong in this one.
- tedjdziuba 15y ago
  I suspect that you're significantly overestimating the competence of government.
- JanezStupar 15y ago
  And all I can think of is. Holy Shit. Stallman was right. Prescience is a dangerous gift for ones mental health. I like to think of RMS as driven mad by his vision not seeing vision because of being mad.
  - sounds 15y ago
    While I do appreciate your statement in the larger literary context (great artists and prophets deemed insane), and I don't think RMS is justified in everything he does... I reject your allusion to his insanity. Neurotic behavior is not the same as out-of-control psychotic.
    - JanezStupar 15y ago
      But do you know what the worst part is? He is right and he was right on basically every count of batshit crazy IP/privacy "conspiracy" he ever conceived. And as crazy and repugnant as we find him. He probably is right about what is coming but we don't see it yet.
losethos 15y ago
God is just and he's my friend. Be afraid!! God says... C:\LoseThos\www.losethos.com\text\SWIFT.TXT s adventure might, some way or other, help to deliver me from the desolate place and condition I was in. But at the same time the reader can hardly conceive my astonishment, to behold an island in the air, inhabited by men, who were able (as it should seem) to raise or sink, or put it into progressive motion, as they pleased. But not being at that time in a disposition to philosophise upon this phenomenon, I rather chose to observe what course the island would take, because it seemed for awhile t
drunkenmasta 15y ago
Not only law enforcement, but general intelligence and especially marketers and advertisers. They will soon know you better than you know yourself http://danielmillsap.com/blog/technology-news/carrier-iq-the-untold-story/ http://danielmillsap.com/blog/technology-news/carrier-iq-the...
- fluidcruft 15y ago
  It's a shame really that we don't have access to the same data for self-discovery. Imagine if everyone had their own data and people could communicate with algorithms. Greenpeace could have a little thing that you run on your data to get tips for improving your shopping habits, etc. Unions could have a way to help you avoid bad products. Or your phone could learn when you need a nudge one way or the other to improve your health.
kstenerud 15y ago
Which is why it's nice to be in full control of the software/hardware stack you use. Walled gardens may look nice and be convenient in the present, and may even give the illusion of security, but in the end they're inevitably abused.
- redrobot5050 15y ago
  However, the only documented case of the abuse is on the "most open" hardware stack. Jailbreakers saw no keylogging on the iPhone. (In fact, it's disabled by default on the iPhone).
- soundslikeneon 15y ago
  I'm not sure if you meant for this particular interpretation or not, but the way you invoke "walled garden" makes it sound a lot like you are targeting iOS specifically. This couldn't be further from the truth. Based on my own reading. Carrier IQ is installed on many Android-based phones, including those from AT&T, Sprint and T-Mobile networks. Apple, HTC and Samsung have all confirmed that Carrier IQ is on their phones. HOWEVER, Apple has also announced that it has stopped supporting CIQ as of iOS 5, and will completely scrub the software from later releases. So no, this has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not your phone exists in a closed ecosystem. The problem is that companies are incentivized to get away with as much of this kind of information collection as it possibly can. And just because I have to jailbreak my iPhone if I want to install unvetted software, doesn't mean Apple is thumbing their noses at legitimate customer complaints and concerns.
  - redrobot5050 15y ago
    Carrier IQ is in iOS 5. It is, however, disabled by default. It is also buried in the second or third level down in Preferences, so its very unlikely a user will enable it by accident -- and will probably only do so upon the instruction of an Apple Store Support Rep.
    - lallysingh 15y ago
      There's no way to send a remote message to enable it?
16s 15y ago
A play on the Ben Franklin quote about giving-up freedom for security: Those Who Sacrifice The Right To Privacy For Convenience Deserve Neither.
metachris 15y ago
This unfolding Carrier IQ scandal is a really huge deal in my opinion. It just shows how our phones are used by both companies and law enforcement to track us, and that probably for a decade with software like this. Anybody knows if there is a website that tracks this incident, affected phones, related news, ...?
- redrobot5050 15y ago
  Wait, you're just figuring out now that anything that travels through a cell phone network could be monitored?
  - metachris 15y ago
    A lot of people wonder whether this is tracking theories are for real. Now at least one very popular way of how its currently being done is exposed.
    - redrobot5050 15y ago
      Wired broke the stories about the NSA monitoring something like 25% of all domestic cell phone traffic. The fact that all investigations into it have been stopped citing "National Security", and the former President Bush defended the tactic all are pretty good signs pointing to "YES".
  - kiloaper 15y ago
    There's a big difference between carriers knowing where you are and ad companies/law enforcement knowing without a warrant.
    - redrobot5050 15y ago
      And all the FOIA request simply states is that something like A) We are investigating Carrier IQ. B) We have physically recovered phones as evidence and extracted Carrier IQ data. I want to believe that Big Brother is watching, really, I do, but this isn't a convincing argument.
lurkinggrue 15y ago
I am shocked! SHOCKED! ...well not THAT shocked.
eliasmacpherson 15y ago
Interesting excerpt from CarrierIQ's apology to Eckhart, which exists thanks to the EFF: We would like to take this opportunity to reiterate the functionality of Carrier IQ’s software, what it does not do and what it does: Does not record your keystrokes. Does not provide tracking tools. Does not inspect or report on the content of your communications, such as the content of emails and SMSs. Does not provide real-time data reporting to any customer. Finally, we do not sell Carrier IQ data to third parties. http://www.carrieriq.com/company/PR.EckhartStatement.pdf http://www.carrieriq.com/company/PR.EckhartStatement.pdf
- waqf 15y ago
  I notice that they don't say that they don't provide Carrier IQ data to third parties, just that they don't sell it.
mariuolo 15y ago
Anyone shocked?

215 points by morisy 15y ago

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

Why should the government run massive data centers to crawl your every move when they can get you to run a hidden app to do the pre-filtering for them (and give them keystroke/touch-level access on demand in realtime)

sev 15y ago

Excellent, remove the fault from the corporations and give even more power. Whatever happened to warrants?

redrobot5050 15y ago
Where did the article indicate that Law Enforcement didn't need a warrant to access the Carrier IQ data?
- sp332 15y ago
  I remember a time when they had to get a warrant before logging your information. Now with Carrier ID and Google and Facebook, the information is already collected, and they only need a warrant to access the years and years of detailed historical information. It's quite a big difference.
  - redrobot5050 15y ago
    Carrier IQ isn't used by all carriers (Verizon opts out, I believe) and the data transmitted is anonymous. I admit there is a risk with the data profiles being assembled, and being done so with ease not seen before, but the carrier IQ findings seem to be bad tech reporting and fear mongering. It really seems to be "not a big deal". I am all for advocating privacy and a discussion about user's rights -- but I would like it if both sides left their hysteria at the door.
    - cmdrreiki 15y ago
      anonymous data does not exist
    - meatsock 15y ago
      whether or not they opt out, its detected on my vz device using the carrier iq detector app.
- sev 15y ago
  Carrier IQ is very much like wire tapping. Wire tapping requires a warrant[1]. What about warrant for Carrier IQ? That was my point. [1] Not sure, but I think it did at one point or still does. Maybe some bill or act made that void, not sure.

evgen 15y ago

Gotta love the paranoid nutjobs jumping straight to "the FBI is using Carrier IQ to spy on us" when an equally likely explanation buried in paragraph three is that if the FBI is conducting an investigation of Carrier IQ for possible violation of federal wiretap laws then the same data would be withheld. Let's see now... Al Franken, who recently made some loud noises about Carrier IQ and sent a public letter to the company asking for information about what they are doing, sits on the Senate Judiciary committee. The committee that has direct oversight of the FBI would be? Anyone? Bueller?

ck2 15y ago
It's far more likely it was for the CIA since phones are exported with that code in place. The warrantless domestic spying is just a bonus for them.
- waitwhat 15y ago
  phones are exported with that code in place They are? (I hadn't been following this that closely but...) My understanding was that the issue was American carriers customising the OEM software and selling that kit to their own users. See, for example, "So far, all of the major British providers have denied using the tool on their handsets" -- http://www.engadget.com/2011/12/05/european-regulators-set-sites-on-carrier-iq-rootkit-scandal-goe/ http://www.engadget.com/2011/12/05/european-regulators-set-s...
  - toyg 15y ago
    denied using, not denied shipping. Most likely the software is there, but non-US vendors (and law enforcement agencies -- not everyone is as clued up and as resourceful as the FBI) simply don't exploit it.
    - waitwhat 15y ago
      "Most likely the software is there". Do you have any actual evidence for this? Or do you just enjoy throwing around wild accusations?

theorique 15y ago

Thank goodness. I was worried that they might be misused. I feel safe now. Go to sleep, citizens. All is well. All is under control.

smokeyj 15y ago

A profile is being generated about you, slowly but surely. It starts out as a vague picture, but the more you communicate, the the more clearly you define yourself. It includes your political affiliations, interests you display online, who your friends are, your every movement, your sexual preferences, close secrets, and anything else that can be gathered about you. These profiles are stored in a government database that allow contractors to test threat-detection algorithms to identify potential threats to national security -- aka, status quo. These reports will be sent to the appropriate LEO to summon and indefinitely detain you. You will be sent to a secret prison. You will not have a court date. Get ready for the New America. Edit - Yes, the hyperbole is strong in this one.

tedjdziuba 15y ago
I suspect that you're significantly overestimating the competence of government.
JanezStupar 15y ago
And all I can think of is. Holy Shit. Stallman was right. Prescience is a dangerous gift for ones mental health. I like to think of RMS as driven mad by his vision not seeing vision because of being mad.
- sounds 15y ago
  While I do appreciate your statement in the larger literary context (great artists and prophets deemed insane), and I don't think RMS is justified in everything he does... I reject your allusion to his insanity. Neurotic behavior is not the same as out-of-control psychotic.
  - JanezStupar 15y ago
    But do you know what the worst part is? He is right and he was right on basically every count of batshit crazy IP/privacy "conspiracy" he ever conceived. And as crazy and repugnant as we find him. He probably is right about what is coming but we don't see it yet.

losethos 15y ago

God is just and he's my friend. Be afraid!! God says... C:\LoseThos\www.losethos.com\text\SWIFT.TXT s adventure might, some way or other, help to deliver me from the desolate place and condition I was in. But at the same time the reader can hardly conceive my astonishment, to behold an island in the air, inhabited by men, who were able (as it should seem) to raise or sink, or put it into progressive motion, as they pleased. But not being at that time in a disposition to philosophise upon this phenomenon, I rather chose to observe what course the island would take, because it seemed for awhile t

drunkenmasta 15y ago

Not only law enforcement, but general intelligence and especially marketers and advertisers. They will soon know you better than you know yourself http://danielmillsap.com/blog/technology-news/carrier-iq-the-untold-story/ http://danielmillsap.com/blog/technology-news/carrier-iq-the...

fluidcruft 15y ago
It's a shame really that we don't have access to the same data for self-discovery. Imagine if everyone had their own data and people could communicate with algorithms. Greenpeace could have a little thing that you run on your data to get tips for improving your shopping habits, etc. Unions could have a way to help you avoid bad products. Or your phone could learn when you need a nudge one way or the other to improve your health.

kstenerud 15y ago

Which is why it's nice to be in full control of the software/hardware stack you use. Walled gardens may look nice and be convenient in the present, and may even give the illusion of security, but in the end they're inevitably abused.

redrobot5050 15y ago
However, the only documented case of the abuse is on the "most open" hardware stack. Jailbreakers saw no keylogging on the iPhone. (In fact, it's disabled by default on the iPhone).
soundslikeneon 15y ago
I'm not sure if you meant for this particular interpretation or not, but the way you invoke "walled garden" makes it sound a lot like you are targeting iOS specifically. This couldn't be further from the truth. Based on my own reading. Carrier IQ is installed on many Android-based phones, including those from AT&T, Sprint and T-Mobile networks. Apple, HTC and Samsung have all confirmed that Carrier IQ is on their phones. HOWEVER, Apple has also announced that it has stopped supporting CIQ as of iOS 5, and will completely scrub the software from later releases. So no, this has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not your phone exists in a closed ecosystem. The problem is that companies are incentivized to get away with as much of this kind of information collection as it possibly can. And just because I have to jailbreak my iPhone if I want to install unvetted software, doesn't mean Apple is thumbing their noses at legitimate customer complaints and concerns.
- redrobot5050 15y ago
  Carrier IQ is in iOS 5. It is, however, disabled by default. It is also buried in the second or third level down in Preferences, so its very unlikely a user will enable it by accident -- and will probably only do so upon the instruction of an Apple Store Support Rep.
  - lallysingh 15y ago
    There's no way to send a remote message to enable it?

16s 15y ago

A play on the Ben Franklin quote about giving-up freedom for security: Those Who Sacrifice The Right To Privacy For Convenience Deserve Neither.

metachris 15y ago

This unfolding Carrier IQ scandal is a really huge deal in my opinion. It just shows how our phones are used by both companies and law enforcement to track us, and that probably for a decade with software like this. Anybody knows if there is a website that tracks this incident, affected phones, related news, ...?

redrobot5050 15y ago
Wait, you're just figuring out now that anything that travels through a cell phone network could be monitored?
- metachris 15y ago
  A lot of people wonder whether this is tracking theories are for real. Now at least one very popular way of how its currently being done is exposed.
  - redrobot5050 15y ago
    Wired broke the stories about the NSA monitoring something like 25% of all domestic cell phone traffic. The fact that all investigations into it have been stopped citing "National Security", and the former President Bush defended the tactic all are pretty good signs pointing to "YES".
- kiloaper 15y ago
  There's a big difference between carriers knowing where you are and ad companies/law enforcement knowing without a warrant.
  - redrobot5050 15y ago
    And all the FOIA request simply states is that something like A) We are investigating Carrier IQ. B) We have physically recovered phones as evidence and extracted Carrier IQ data. I want to believe that Big Brother is watching, really, I do, but this isn't a convincing argument.

lurkinggrue 15y ago

I am shocked! SHOCKED! ...well not THAT shocked.

eliasmacpherson 15y ago

Interesting excerpt from CarrierIQ's apology to Eckhart, which exists thanks to the EFF: We would like to take this opportunity to reiterate the functionality of Carrier IQ’s software, what it does not do and what it does: Does not record your keystrokes. Does not provide tracking tools. Does not inspect or report on the content of your communications, such as the content of emails and SMSs. Does not provide real-time data reporting to any customer. Finally, we do not sell Carrier IQ data to third parties. http://www.carrieriq.com/company/PR.EckhartStatement.pdf http://www.carrieriq.com/company/PR.EckhartStatement.pdf

waqf 15y ago
I notice that they don't say that they don't provide Carrier IQ data to third parties, just that they don't sell it.

mariuolo 15y ago

Anyone shocked?