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"Preparing for a Malicious “For-Cause” Termination The new leadership has dramatically changed the expectations of workload across the organization. It is now e

"Preparing for a Malicious “For-Cause” Termination The new leadership has dramatically changed the expectations of workload across the organization. It is now expected that teams work evenings and weekends to ship products. Work progress is being tracked by the hour in spreadsheets to build precedent for terminating workers “for cause” to avoid paying severance. " That's just shitty. Richest guy in the world and he doesn't want to pay severance. CA has some pretty strong labor laws, I'd think requiring people to work evenings & weekends would be a no-go. From a game-theory standpoint it seems like given that Musk is going to do everything he can to keep from paying severance that the best strategy would be for everyone to just walk out the door all together and let Musk figure it all out by himself. Don't give notice, just stop showing up for work.

VHRanger 4y ago
Having won a severance lawsuit in the past (Quebec jurisdiction though): Employment lawyers must be salivating at this point. Twitter is blatantly trying to avoid paying severance by using the for cause, and are likely sloppy in doing it given management pressure. Gentle reminder to everyone that a big reason companies pay severance is so you dont sue them. If they offer you the minimum legal package, or worse they try to bullshit you into even less, you should be suing them. Theyre hoping you dont.
- pc86 4y ago
  Even California's labor laws are not going to be close to anything in Canada. And I don't know how many Twitter folks are remote, but if they're not in a very small minority of states, they're basically at the whims of management. At the end of the day, Twitter is under new management and it is within management's right to change to circumstances of your employment. If they start pushing night and weekend work, and you don't deliver, that alone isn't necessarily a violation of any law. You didn't perform, and it's completely possible that your termination is legally for cause, even in California. Employment law is very complex and honestly the situation will vary drastically even among similarly leveled folks on the same team fired at the same time. What kind of notification you're given, what kind of documentation there, previous reviews, etc. all play a role. I think it's shitty to try to squeeze out people like this but just because it's shitty doesn't mean it's illegal or that it's a good idea to sue over it.
  - VHRanger 4y ago
    Everything you say is correct, but Twitter employees should all still: 1. Document everything off company devices 2. Consult an attorney, preferably specialized in employment law. Prepare for a lawsuit, itll be worth it if one is necessary.
  - whatever1 4y ago
    You are missing a key point: scale of lay offs. Of course an employer can pull this off for a handful of employees, but not for a significant percentage of their workforce. If your claim was right, no employer would had paid severance for layoffs. They would just give a cause to every one laid off. Not that hard to come up with bs metrics.
- shagie 4y ago
  > Twitter is blatantly trying to avoid paying severance by using the for cause, and are likely sloppy in doing it given management pressure. https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/finalpay.pdf https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/finalpay.pdf > There is no legal requirement under California law that employers provide severance pay to an employee upon termination of employment. Employees should refer to their employer’s policy with respect to severance pay. Severance pay plans provided by an employer pursuant to the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974, 29 U.S.C. § 1001, et seq. (ERISA), are subject to federal law. Contact the U.S. Department of Labor at www.dol.gov. In certain limited situations, California laws may apply. However, a thorough review of the facts is necessary before a determination can be made.
  - rented_mule 4y ago
    But layoffs in California of 50 or more people in a 30-day period require the employer give 60-day notice to affected employees as a result of the California Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification (WARN) Act[0]. This is often handled by giving 60+ days of compensation as severance with ~0 notice. If they can get away with saying it's "for cause" then they can claim it's not a layoff and therefore not covered by the WARN Act. ---- [0]https://edd.ca.gov/en/Jobs_and_Training/Layoff_Services_WARN https://edd.ca.gov/en/Jobs_and_Training/Layoff_Services_WARN
    - shagie 4y ago
      You are describing garden leave ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_leave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_leave ) which is often part of a the WARN layoff approach - but it is distinct and different than severance. It is completely possible to say "we are going to lay off these 50 people on January 3, 2023" but not actually have them leave (and instead require them to come into the office for the next four weeks to help with knowledge transfer). That fills the requirement for WARN - the employees know that they are getting laid off and have time to find a new job. In tech jobs, where IP is important, the garden leave approach is often taken because it limits the opportunity for an employee to engage in IP theft - but it is not required. When I was laid off from Netapp in 2009, I was informed I was going to be laid off on March 16th. My last day was May 15th, 2009 and then I had a severance package that was 3(?) weeks of pay for every year I had worked there. I could have left on my own accord in March if I wanted to, but my severance package was tied to me completing knowledge transfer for the next 60 days at which time the layoff would be complete.
cgb223 4y ago
> "Preparing for a Malicious “For-Cause” Termination The new leadership has dramatically changed the expectations of workload across the organization. It is now expected that teams work evenings and weekends to ship products. Work progress is being tracked by the hour in spreadsheets to build precedent for terminating workers “for cause” to avoid paying severance. " Unfortunately this is happening at a different not-quite-FAANG company in the Bay as we speak It’s a terrible feeling. Getting gaslit, having everything you do suddenly be under a microscope, finding flaws in any work you do correctly to further document your faults. Even though every other review you’ve had with your manager previously was positive. All to avoid paying out a mildly generous severance package en masse, and the bad press that comes with actual Layoffs… Companies really show their true colors when times get hard. Benefits mean nothing if they’re taken away at the first sign of hard times
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Unionize. Unfortunately, there is no other way to improve working conditions on a smaller scale, and it’s more actionable than legislation. Efforts to do so are protected by federal labor law. Labor rights are not a four letter word. It’s dignity, plain and simple. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33426373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33426373
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- AnonCoward007 4y ago
  > Unfortunately this is happening at a different not-quite-FAANG company in the Bay as we speak It’s happening at FAANG companies as well. My team was dissolved last week and I was reassigned to a different team that already had a senior engineer on it. I was told by my manager that they only need one senior on the team and so it’s them or me. I’m encouraged to document their flaws and I’m sure they were told the same about me. The next review cycle is going to be brutal.
nemo44x 4y ago
> Don't give notice, just stop showing up for work. I’d assume many of the employees that will be kept are grateful they don’t have to carry the low performers any longer. Game knows game and high performers want to work with similar people. Why would the cohort of high performing employees walk out for the benefit of the low performing employees?
- _jal 4y ago
  Why would a high performer put up with being treated like shit because the new guy regrets his stoned impulse buy? If I worked there, I'd walk.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    - socialismisok 4y ago
      [flagged]
    - UncleOxidant 4y ago
      Since you're so inspired sounds like maybe you should volunteer to go work there for free?
    - piva00 4y ago
      You sound terribly out of touch with reality, workaholism won't cure the void you feel in your soul... It can make you more money, which will just feel as empty as you are feeling right now.
- UncleOxidant 4y ago
  It sounds like everyone is being required to work some pretty crazy hours. Why would even high performing employees want to be burned out when they could easily get another job?
  - 4y ago
jurassic 4y ago
It's shameful is what it is. Richest man in the world trying to pick the pockets of average workers after he abused them and threw them out of a job.
- socialismisok 4y ago
  I hope this breaks his reputation amongst tech types. But sadly it probably won't.
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
    I think this whole fiasco has definitely tarnished his reputation among all but the very most devoted muskbros. I'd certainly never consider buying a Tesla now - not just because I don't want to support Musk's project, but because driving a Tesla is starting to be a bad look.
- kodyo 4y ago
  Right. They worked for a shitty company with shitty service that elevated shitty people to prominence while collaborating with a shitty government to oppress speech while ignoring shitty users who were distributing underage porn. Poor them.

VHRanger 4y ago

Having won a severance lawsuit in the past (Quebec jurisdiction though): Employment lawyers must be salivating at this point. Twitter is blatantly trying to avoid paying severance by using the for cause, and are likely sloppy in doing it given management pressure. Gentle reminder to everyone that a big reason companies pay severance is so you dont sue them. If they offer you the minimum legal package, or worse they try to bullshit you into even less, you should be suing them. Theyre hoping you dont.

pc86 4y ago
Even California's labor laws are not going to be close to anything in Canada. And I don't know how many Twitter folks are remote, but if they're not in a very small minority of states, they're basically at the whims of management. At the end of the day, Twitter is under new management and it is within management's right to change to circumstances of your employment. If they start pushing night and weekend work, and you don't deliver, that alone isn't necessarily a violation of any law. You didn't perform, and it's completely possible that your termination is legally for cause, even in California. Employment law is very complex and honestly the situation will vary drastically even among similarly leveled folks on the same team fired at the same time. What kind of notification you're given, what kind of documentation there, previous reviews, etc. all play a role. I think it's shitty to try to squeeze out people like this but just because it's shitty doesn't mean it's illegal or that it's a good idea to sue over it.
- VHRanger 4y ago
  Everything you say is correct, but Twitter employees should all still: 1. Document everything off company devices 2. Consult an attorney, preferably specialized in employment law. Prepare for a lawsuit, itll be worth it if one is necessary.
- whatever1 4y ago
  You are missing a key point: scale of lay offs. Of course an employer can pull this off for a handful of employees, but not for a significant percentage of their workforce. If your claim was right, no employer would had paid severance for layoffs. They would just give a cause to every one laid off. Not that hard to come up with bs metrics.
shagie 4y ago
> Twitter is blatantly trying to avoid paying severance by using the for cause, and are likely sloppy in doing it given management pressure. https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/finalpay.pdf https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/finalpay.pdf > There is no legal requirement under California law that employers provide severance pay to an employee upon termination of employment. Employees should refer to their employer’s policy with respect to severance pay. Severance pay plans provided by an employer pursuant to the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974, 29 U.S.C. § 1001, et seq. (ERISA), are subject to federal law. Contact the U.S. Department of Labor at www.dol.gov. In certain limited situations, California laws may apply. However, a thorough review of the facts is necessary before a determination can be made.
- rented_mule 4y ago
  But layoffs in California of 50 or more people in a 30-day period require the employer give 60-day notice to affected employees as a result of the California Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification (WARN) Act[0]. This is often handled by giving 60+ days of compensation as severance with ~0 notice. If they can get away with saying it's "for cause" then they can claim it's not a layoff and therefore not covered by the WARN Act. ---- [0]https://edd.ca.gov/en/Jobs_and_Training/Layoff_Services_WARN https://edd.ca.gov/en/Jobs_and_Training/Layoff_Services_WARN
  - shagie 4y ago
    You are describing garden leave ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_leave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_leave ) which is often part of a the WARN layoff approach - but it is distinct and different than severance. It is completely possible to say "we are going to lay off these 50 people on January 3, 2023" but not actually have them leave (and instead require them to come into the office for the next four weeks to help with knowledge transfer). That fills the requirement for WARN - the employees know that they are getting laid off and have time to find a new job. In tech jobs, where IP is important, the garden leave approach is often taken because it limits the opportunity for an employee to engage in IP theft - but it is not required. When I was laid off from Netapp in 2009, I was informed I was going to be laid off on March 16th. My last day was May 15th, 2009 and then I had a severance package that was 3(?) weeks of pay for every year I had worked there. I could have left on my own accord in March if I wanted to, but my severance package was tied to me completing knowledge transfer for the next 60 days at which time the layoff would be complete.

cgb223 4y ago

> "Preparing for a Malicious “For-Cause” Termination The new leadership has dramatically changed the expectations of workload across the organization. It is now expected that teams work evenings and weekends to ship products. Work progress is being tracked by the hour in spreadsheets to build precedent for terminating workers “for cause” to avoid paying severance. " Unfortunately this is happening at a different not-quite-FAANG company in the Bay as we speak It’s a terrible feeling. Getting gaslit, having everything you do suddenly be under a microscope, finding flaws in any work you do correctly to further document your faults. Even though every other review you’ve had with your manager previously was positive. All to avoid paying out a mildly generous severance package en masse, and the bad press that comes with actual Layoffs… Companies really show their true colors when times get hard. Benefits mean nothing if they’re taken away at the first sign of hard times

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Unionize. Unfortunately, there is no other way to improve working conditions on a smaller scale, and it’s more actionable than legislation. Efforts to do so are protected by federal labor law. Labor rights are not a four letter word. It’s dignity, plain and simple. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33426373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33426373
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
AnonCoward007 4y ago
> Unfortunately this is happening at a different not-quite-FAANG company in the Bay as we speak It’s happening at FAANG companies as well. My team was dissolved last week and I was reassigned to a different team that already had a senior engineer on it. I was told by my manager that they only need one senior on the team and so it’s them or me. I’m encouraged to document their flaws and I’m sure they were told the same about me. The next review cycle is going to be brutal.

nemo44x 4y ago

> Don't give notice, just stop showing up for work. I’d assume many of the employees that will be kept are grateful they don’t have to carry the low performers any longer. Game knows game and high performers want to work with similar people. Why would the cohort of high performing employees walk out for the benefit of the low performing employees?

_jal 4y ago
Why would a high performer put up with being treated like shit because the new guy regrets his stoned impulse buy? If I worked there, I'd walk.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
    Since you're so inspired sounds like maybe you should volunteer to go work there for free?
  - piva00 4y ago
    You sound terribly out of touch with reality, workaholism won't cure the void you feel in your soul... It can make you more money, which will just feel as empty as you are feeling right now.
UncleOxidant 4y ago
It sounds like everyone is being required to work some pretty crazy hours. Why would even high performing employees want to be burned out when they could easily get another job?
- 4y ago

jurassic 4y ago

It's shameful is what it is. Richest man in the world trying to pick the pockets of average workers after he abused them and threw them out of a job.

socialismisok 4y ago
I hope this breaks his reputation amongst tech types. But sadly it probably won't.
- UncleOxidant 4y ago
  I think this whole fiasco has definitely tarnished his reputation among all but the very most devoted muskbros. I'd certainly never consider buying a Tesla now - not just because I don't want to support Musk's project, but because driving a Tesla is starting to be a bad look.
kodyo 4y ago
Right. They worked for a shitty company with shitty service that elevated shitty people to prominence while collaborating with a shitty government to oppress speech while ignoring shitty users who were distributing underage porn. Poor them.