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i think this is a good thing and not "rigged". here's why: 1. you can train yourself to be a morning person. this is coming from someone who is not at all a mo

i think this is a good thing and not "rigged". here's why: 1. you can train yourself to be a morning person. this is coming from someone who is not at all a morning person by nature. so it's not unfair, what it does do is weed out people who don't bother to do so. it selects for disciplined people with a strong work ethic. 2. it is easier to be a night person than a morning person. inertia says it is easier to stay up later than get up earlier. so again, it selects for people who are disciplined.

pid-1 4y ago
Anedote, but as I got older (>30) being a morning person became easier and easier.
- q-big 4y ago
  For me, it is the other way round. Thus: YMMV
gryBrd1987 4y ago
masswerk 4y ago
Sorry, this is not how it works. (What actually happens: You're laying in bed awake and eventually raise to shuffle to work without any sleep.)
- collegeburner 4y ago
  thanks for telling me what's actually happening to myself. you're wrong, it works fine. and it's worked for a bunch of friends as well. why do you think "this is not how it works"? i may have only an anecdote and some reasoning to support my point of view, but you have squat to support yours.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - masswerk 4y ago
    It may have been so for you. Your case may have not been that severe. This doesn't mean that it so for everybody else, as well. And why do I think that this is not how it works? Well, it hasn't been so, when I was 5, not when I was 7, not when I was 14, not at 20, nor at 30. It isn't so in my 50s. It's currently 2:50 a.m. local and there's no chance, I can get any sleep for another few hours. (So I'm going to do some work, until any of the early birds manage to show up.)
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    > thanks for telling me what's actually happening to myself. You're the one in this thread with the blanket statements that everyone can train themselves to be a morning person along with the blanket statements about how flexible or inflexible everyone's chronotypes are. Go look in a mirror right now and figure out how much of a hypocrite you are. Maybe you can't see it because you need better rest.
YokoZar 4y ago
No, you can't. Well, maybe you personally can. But all the actual science says that willpower, sleep hygiene, and sunlight exposure only move the margins a bit for those with inflexible night-time chronotypes. Doing everything "right" is not going to make a 5am natural sleeper into a morning person, it's going to make them into a 3am natural sleeper.
- tomrod 4y ago
  I wonder whether those studies tried alarms.
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    As a former “night owl” who has largely adjusted to a morningish schedule for approximately a decade… alarms are the devil to me. I only set them as an emergency last resort. Even if I do, I generally try to get to bed early enough I won’t need to rely on them. Alarms and abrupt wake from sleep are immediate and persistent negative rest for me. Even waking too early, checking the time to discover I could rest longer but not by much, is more resting. At least then I get an extra 20 minutes to just quietly ease my brain into the waking world instead of bludgeoning it with blasting sounds I either need to react to immediately or pretend I’m sleeping through.
- SLWW 4y ago
  most wouldn't fall under "inflexible night-time chronotypes" i don't think Do you have links to the "actual science" btw, I'm curious to read about this
- collegeburner 4y ago
  sorry, nothing about our bodies tells me they're this inflexible. i wonder if the "nighttime chronotypes" controlled for things that actually would influence it, like light exposure. regardless, one of the things that worked best for me was rigging a bright light to dawn gradually at a early hour, and cutting off my bright light exposure at a early hour. even if i have a "night chronotype" it's still possible to "trick" it into thinking i'm sleeping at a different time. tbh i'm a bit suspicious that there are 5am natural sleepers. being basically nocturnal doesn't sound natural or healthy. and given the proven effects of lack of sunlight on mental health that should be fixed regardless of work timing. i personally hate the phrase "the science" with a passion, but can you link me what you're referencing? cause nothing suggests that they're this "inflexible". ngl everyone i've talked to who has a "nighttime chronotype" is actually just doomscrolling until 3AM then complaining "oh i can't sleep early". they typically keep bright light on late and use blackout curtains in the morning. no wonder their bodies don't work in a natural, normal circadian rhythm when they do this kinda stuff.
chihuahua 4y ago
For many years, I was used to getting up late. Then I found a reason for getting up early: during vacations, I wanted to do 5-6 hour bike rides before the temperature reaches 100F in the afternoon. So I started getting up at 6am during vacations. And since I had gotten used to it, I kept up the same schedule year round. It's not that rewarding in the winter when it's dark in the morning. But it's still useful for getting work done early before I start getting interrupted by coworkers.
JamesBarney 4y ago
God everyone says this. But it's not like i didn't wake up at 7am for 12 years in highschool, and it didn't make me a morning person. Just perpetually sleep deprived.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  Up through high school, despite being sleep deprived it didn't take me 12 years to finish.
topkai22 4y ago
You can adapt to early hours, but you can’t become a morning person. As people age, they do tend to shift their internal clocks earlier, but within the same age cohort relative early/late preferences generally stay the same between people. Internal clocks and circadian rhythms are complex, but are demonstrated to have a biological and even genetic component. Declaring that being a morning person is about “discipline” is like saying being a great basketball player is about “discipline.” Sure, it helps, but at some point genetics and biology take over. I wasn’t a believer on this subject before, but I found the book “Internal Time” incredibly well researched, written, and convincing. https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674975392 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674975392
gort19 4y ago
tluyben2 4y ago
You can fake to be a morning person by setting your alarm early and go to bed 8 hours before that; maybe you are doing a good enough job and have a productive life. However, maybe you would’ve been far more productive if you would’ve just slept when tired and worked when you naturally wake up. In my experience, that works a lot better than wringing yourself in some kind of schedule. I don’t know very many (any, come to think of it) people who would naturally choose 9-5 and indeed, less and less do adhere to them. I prefer 5 am to 11 am for office hours and others prefer 11 am to 3 pm and then 5 pm to 9 pm etc. People who prefer actual office hours I don’t know personally, but I guess they exist.

pid-1 4y ago

Anedote, but as I got older (>30) being a morning person became easier and easier.

q-big 4y ago
For me, it is the other way round. Thus: YMMV

gryBrd1987 4y ago

masswerk 4y ago

Sorry, this is not how it works. (What actually happens: You're laying in bed awake and eventually raise to shuffle to work without any sleep.)

collegeburner 4y ago
thanks for telling me what's actually happening to myself. you're wrong, it works fine. and it's worked for a bunch of friends as well. why do you think "this is not how it works"? i may have only an anecdote and some reasoning to support my point of view, but you have squat to support yours.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- masswerk 4y ago
  It may have been so for you. Your case may have not been that severe. This doesn't mean that it so for everybody else, as well. And why do I think that this is not how it works? Well, it hasn't been so, when I was 5, not when I was 7, not when I was 14, not at 20, nor at 30. It isn't so in my 50s. It's currently 2:50 a.m. local and there's no chance, I can get any sleep for another few hours. (So I'm going to do some work, until any of the early birds manage to show up.)
- lamontcg 4y ago
  > thanks for telling me what's actually happening to myself. You're the one in this thread with the blanket statements that everyone can train themselves to be a morning person along with the blanket statements about how flexible or inflexible everyone's chronotypes are. Go look in a mirror right now and figure out how much of a hypocrite you are. Maybe you can't see it because you need better rest.

YokoZar 4y ago

No, you can't. Well, maybe you personally can. But all the actual science says that willpower, sleep hygiene, and sunlight exposure only move the margins a bit for those with inflexible night-time chronotypes. Doing everything "right" is not going to make a 5am natural sleeper into a morning person, it's going to make them into a 3am natural sleeper.

tomrod 4y ago
I wonder whether those studies tried alarms.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  As a former “night owl” who has largely adjusted to a morningish schedule for approximately a decade… alarms are the devil to me. I only set them as an emergency last resort. Even if I do, I generally try to get to bed early enough I won’t need to rely on them. Alarms and abrupt wake from sleep are immediate and persistent negative rest for me. Even waking too early, checking the time to discover I could rest longer but not by much, is more resting. At least then I get an extra 20 minutes to just quietly ease my brain into the waking world instead of bludgeoning it with blasting sounds I either need to react to immediately or pretend I’m sleeping through.
SLWW 4y ago
most wouldn't fall under "inflexible night-time chronotypes" i don't think Do you have links to the "actual science" btw, I'm curious to read about this
collegeburner 4y ago
sorry, nothing about our bodies tells me they're this inflexible. i wonder if the "nighttime chronotypes" controlled for things that actually would influence it, like light exposure. regardless, one of the things that worked best for me was rigging a bright light to dawn gradually at a early hour, and cutting off my bright light exposure at a early hour. even if i have a "night chronotype" it's still possible to "trick" it into thinking i'm sleeping at a different time. tbh i'm a bit suspicious that there are 5am natural sleepers. being basically nocturnal doesn't sound natural or healthy. and given the proven effects of lack of sunlight on mental health that should be fixed regardless of work timing. i personally hate the phrase "the science" with a passion, but can you link me what you're referencing? cause nothing suggests that they're this "inflexible". ngl everyone i've talked to who has a "nighttime chronotype" is actually just doomscrolling until 3AM then complaining "oh i can't sleep early". they typically keep bright light on late and use blackout curtains in the morning. no wonder their bodies don't work in a natural, normal circadian rhythm when they do this kinda stuff.

chihuahua 4y ago

For many years, I was used to getting up late. Then I found a reason for getting up early: during vacations, I wanted to do 5-6 hour bike rides before the temperature reaches 100F in the afternoon. So I started getting up at 6am during vacations. And since I had gotten used to it, I kept up the same schedule year round. It's not that rewarding in the winter when it's dark in the morning. But it's still useful for getting work done early before I start getting interrupted by coworkers.

JamesBarney 4y ago

God everyone says this. But it's not like i didn't wake up at 7am for 12 years in highschool, and it didn't make me a morning person. Just perpetually sleep deprived.

JamesBarney 4y ago
Up through high school, despite being sleep deprived it didn't take me 12 years to finish.

topkai22 4y ago

You can adapt to early hours, but you can’t become a morning person. As people age, they do tend to shift their internal clocks earlier, but within the same age cohort relative early/late preferences generally stay the same between people. Internal clocks and circadian rhythms are complex, but are demonstrated to have a biological and even genetic component. Declaring that being a morning person is about “discipline” is like saying being a great basketball player is about “discipline.” Sure, it helps, but at some point genetics and biology take over. I wasn’t a believer on this subject before, but I found the book “Internal Time” incredibly well researched, written, and convincing. https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674975392 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674975392

gort19 4y ago

tluyben2 4y ago

You can fake to be a morning person by setting your alarm early and go to bed 8 hours before that; maybe you are doing a good enough job and have a productive life. However, maybe you would’ve been far more productive if you would’ve just slept when tired and worked when you naturally wake up. In my experience, that works a lot better than wringing yourself in some kind of schedule. I don’t know very many (any, come to think of it) people who would naturally choose 9-5 and indeed, less and less do adhere to them. I prefer 5 am to 11 am for office hours and others prefer 11 am to 3 pm and then 5 pm to 9 pm etc. People who prefer actual office hours I don’t know personally, but I guess they exist.