5 ms·

Oh, certainly. A few years is all black kids and women need to overcome racial and gender prejudices in this country. Or how about we don’t assume all black kid

by qzw 4y ago

Oh, certainly. A few years is all black kids and women need to overcome racial and gender prejudices in this country. Or how about we don’t assume all black kids and women are diversity hires now, and maybe, I don’t know, treat each one as an individual and judge them based on the content of their character instead of the color of their skin or the number of their X chromosomes?

givemeethekeys 4y ago
Without affirmative action, all thats left is meritocracy and nepotism. So, I imagine an increasing number of black people and women (or anyone else perceived as less deserving) will be seen as "friend of the boss" or "the boss is doing them a favor". Either way, those can be easily addressed and therefore better than being forever labeled as a diversity hire (aka naturally inferior).
eru 4y ago
If you lower admission standards for any group, say blue people, than statistically speaking blue people will have a lower average. Just like when you see the the son of the CEO working at the company, there's a certain probability that he didn't get in based on his performance alone. Of course, as you suggest, there are sons of the CEO who really are the most qualified candidate for whatever job they are holding. But there's also nepotism.
dasil003 4y ago
This comment is a perfect microcosm of the title. Of course the issues you raise are real, and there is a whole constellation of systemic racism issues that specifically affect black people in a unique way. But when it comes to affirmative action there's a fundamental issue that goes beyond privilege narratives: > Or how about we don’t assume all black kids and women are diversity hires now, and maybe, I don’t know, treat each one as an individual and judge them based on the content of their character That's a nice sentiment, but it overlooks the fact that AA introduces this doubt, the doubt is in fact real, and can't be papered over with good intentions and turning a blind eye to cause and effect. The question is whether the net good in counter-balancing other systemic racism is worth the cost. That's not an easy question to answer. Some individuals would be more than happy to take any advantage they can get, and others want to be judged purely on their individual character.
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  It's not just immigrants from Africa or those who share their racial identity, but its also, and probably more importantly, about the lineages who were kidnapped from Africa as slaves and their families who were stolen from for generations which left very little in their communities to pass to their present day ancestors. It's not good enough to have black faces in high places, because there are people who have been systemically destroyed and their visibility is being obscured by those who happen to look like them. We don't need to give even more opportunity to relatively wealthy African immigrants, some of whom hail from families who profited from American slavery.
  - eru 4y ago
    Compare also Irish people? Of course, in eg Poland it's even more complicated.
    - birdyrooster 4y ago
      There are many parallels around the globe but the point is that there is a lot of nuance to consider if AA is to be effective at what I think was the original intention was: to increase equity among those marginalized for the sake of creating a system most closely resembling a meritocracy.
      - eru 4y ago
        I'm not even sure there's a single 'original intention'. Political projects are always pushed by a coalition of people, everyone with their own agenda.
- fn-mote 4y ago
  > AA introduces this doubt Maybe. Every once in a while we have someone I consider an AA-only hire, but they don't stick around. OK, I'll be honest, the most recent one I was wrong - even though they lacked experience, they were clearly better than the (white male) person they replaced... and they're still here so I'm happy. I'm going to imagine a world without "AA hires". I think people still get judged based on their skin color. That's the way rascism works. So, damned if you do, damned if you don't. Anyway, when an incompetent colleague sticks around for years... I wish I could blame affirmative action and feel good, but nope - instead I'm going to blame management.
jkhdigital 4y ago
> overcome racial and gender prejudices The titular point of the article was that class is really where the discrimination happens nowadays. Race and gender prejudices still exist but have taken a back seat to class inequality. The article also suggests the primary driver for this--deterioration of public primary schooling. It's very easy to see how wealth can allow some families to leap over this problem. edit: sorry it sounded like you were being sarcastic? Now I can't tell after your other comment
dang 4y ago
Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. You can make your substantive points without that, and it's in your interest to, because it will give your comments more persuasive power. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by qzw 4y ago

givemeethekeys 4y ago

Without affirmative action, all thats left is meritocracy and nepotism. So, I imagine an increasing number of black people and women (or anyone else perceived as less deserving) will be seen as "friend of the boss" or "the boss is doing them a favor". Either way, those can be easily addressed and therefore better than being forever labeled as a diversity hire (aka naturally inferior).

eru 4y ago

If you lower admission standards for any group, say blue people, than statistically speaking blue people will have a lower average. Just like when you see the the son of the CEO working at the company, there's a certain probability that he didn't get in based on his performance alone. Of course, as you suggest, there are sons of the CEO who really are the most qualified candidate for whatever job they are holding. But there's also nepotism.

dasil003 4y ago

This comment is a perfect microcosm of the title. Of course the issues you raise are real, and there is a whole constellation of systemic racism issues that specifically affect black people in a unique way. But when it comes to affirmative action there's a fundamental issue that goes beyond privilege narratives: > Or how about we don’t assume all black kids and women are diversity hires now, and maybe, I don’t know, treat each one as an individual and judge them based on the content of their character That's a nice sentiment, but it overlooks the fact that AA introduces this doubt, the doubt is in fact real, and can't be papered over with good intentions and turning a blind eye to cause and effect. The question is whether the net good in counter-balancing other systemic racism is worth the cost. That's not an easy question to answer. Some individuals would be more than happy to take any advantage they can get, and others want to be judged purely on their individual character.

birdyrooster 4y ago
It's not just immigrants from Africa or those who share their racial identity, but its also, and probably more importantly, about the lineages who were kidnapped from Africa as slaves and their families who were stolen from for generations which left very little in their communities to pass to their present day ancestors. It's not good enough to have black faces in high places, because there are people who have been systemically destroyed and their visibility is being obscured by those who happen to look like them. We don't need to give even more opportunity to relatively wealthy African immigrants, some of whom hail from families who profited from American slavery.
- eru 4y ago
  Compare also Irish people? Of course, in eg Poland it's even more complicated.
  - birdyrooster 4y ago
    There are many parallels around the globe but the point is that there is a lot of nuance to consider if AA is to be effective at what I think was the original intention was: to increase equity among those marginalized for the sake of creating a system most closely resembling a meritocracy.
    - eru 4y ago
      I'm not even sure there's a single 'original intention'. Political projects are always pushed by a coalition of people, everyone with their own agenda.
fn-mote 4y ago
> AA introduces this doubt Maybe. Every once in a while we have someone I consider an AA-only hire, but they don't stick around. OK, I'll be honest, the most recent one I was wrong - even though they lacked experience, they were clearly better than the (white male) person they replaced... and they're still here so I'm happy. I'm going to imagine a world without "AA hires". I think people still get judged based on their skin color. That's the way rascism works. So, damned if you do, damned if you don't. Anyway, when an incompetent colleague sticks around for years... I wish I could blame affirmative action and feel good, but nope - instead I'm going to blame management.

jkhdigital 4y ago

> overcome racial and gender prejudices The titular point of the article was that class is really where the discrimination happens nowadays. Race and gender prejudices still exist but have taken a back seat to class inequality. The article also suggests the primary driver for this--deterioration of public primary schooling. It's very easy to see how wealth can allow some families to leap over this problem. edit: sorry it sounded like you were being sarcastic? Now I can't tell after your other comment

dang 4y ago

Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. You can make your substantive points without that, and it's in your interest to, because it will give your comments more persuasive power. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html