5 ms·

As a STEM academic, I can say that I've never seen or heard of ongoing AA for men in any STEM program in any institution whose policies I'm acquainted with. So

As a STEM academic, I can say that I've never seen or heard of ongoing AA for men in any STEM program in any institution whose policies I'm acquainted with. So it seems to me to be misleading to claim, or at least hard to believe, that very many men in college have been beneficiaries of AA for men.

Manuel_D 4y ago
For technology focused universities, women usually have higher admission rates than men: https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/can-your-gender-give-you-an-admissions-edge/#:~:text=MIT's%20acceptance%20rate%20for%20women,Carnegie%20Mellon%20(21%25%20v https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/can-your-gender-give...
- rajin444 4y ago
  Because there are many programs deliberately designed to benefit women - as in, their public stated goal as well as taking direct (as opposed to indirect, i.e requiring height or strength) steps to limit their benefits to women. The same is true of many minorities.
  - MrMan 4y ago
    if women are a minority doesnt that make a mockery of the term?
    - howinteresting 4y ago
      Minority isn't just numerical, it can also mean having a minority of power. For example, in South Africa Black people were (and still are in many ways) a minority even though they were a numerical majority.
      - Manuel_D 4y ago
        One would be pretty hard-pressed to argue that women hold "minority of power. For several decades now, women have had higher college enrollment rates. And among the two youngest generations, the gender pay gap has actually reversed with women out-earning men [1]. One could very well make the argument that discrimination favoring women isn't affirmative action, but rather "punching down" so to speak. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-e...
        howinteresting 4y ago
        Only 30%ish of US state legislators are women. Abortion rights we're just taken away in a number of states. That's a pretty naked display of power.
        Manuel_D 4y ago
        > Abortion rights we're just taken away in a number of states. That's a pretty naked display of power. A policy change that women are actually more likely to support than men. If it's a naked display of power, it's power of a group that's actually slightly overrepresented towards women. 1. https://www.vox.com/2019/5/20/18629644/abortion-gender-gap-public-opinion https://www.vox.com/2019/5/20/18629644/abortion-gender-gap-p...
- bushbaba 4y ago
  My Alma matter literally does everything in their power to boost female admits. It’s grown from 1:4 to roughly 1:3 after a decade of new majors, new scholarships, lower admission scores. This all comes at the cost of well qualified Asian and white males. Multiple studies found White woman are the biggest benefactors of affirmative action.
pokepim 4y ago
michaelt 4y ago
Not in STEM departments, no. Why would you run a pro-male affirmative action programme in a department where men were already over-represented? But there's affirmative action for men in nursing, teaching, social studies, and similar female-dominated departments. There are active campaigns to recruit more male nurses - and male teachers are more likely to be promoted. I also know first-hand that vocational ballet schools recruit equal numbers of boys and girls, so they can teach partnering - despite the fact they probably get 30 female applicants for every male applicant! Of course, a male might find it unfair that the pro-male affirmative action is only applied in areas like ballet and nursing which they're not interested in - but that's the whole point of affirmative action. And if you find it unfair that the pro-male affirmative action for female-dominated jobs only provides low-paid, low-status jobs - then feminists are very much in agreement with you about the unfairness of the situation :)
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > if you find it unfair that the pro-male affirmative action for female-dominated jobs only provides low-paid, low-status jobs - then feminists are very much in agreement with you about the unfairness of the situation :) This is an interesting point, how much of the salary is determined by presumably impartial market forces, and how much of it is just status and social signalling. We know status and social signalling play a significant role, otherwise behavioural economics and marketing wouldn't exist. We also know that the diffrence between salaries of rank and file staff and C-suit executives have increased 15x in the past 20 years, without any corresponding increase in productivity There is good reason to believe that if you could magically shove high-status men into nursing; nursing salaries would go up. But it's hard to see how it would happen unless we'd have equivalent of the draft for low status jobs.
  - duvenaud 4y ago
    >We also know that the diffrence between salaries of rank and file staff and C-suit executives have increased 15x in the past 20 years, without any corresponding increase in productivity Seems like evidence against the claim that status plays a significant role in setting salaries, unless their status has also increased massively in that time.

Manuel_D 4y ago

For technology focused universities, women usually have higher admission rates than men: https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/can-your-gender-give-you-an-admissions-edge/#:~:text=MIT's%20acceptance%20rate%20for%20women,Carnegie%20Mellon%20(21%25%20v https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/can-your-gender-give...

rajin444 4y ago
Because there are many programs deliberately designed to benefit women - as in, their public stated goal as well as taking direct (as opposed to indirect, i.e requiring height or strength) steps to limit their benefits to women. The same is true of many minorities.
- MrMan 4y ago
  if women are a minority doesnt that make a mockery of the term?
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    Minority isn't just numerical, it can also mean having a minority of power. For example, in South Africa Black people were (and still are in many ways) a minority even though they were a numerical majority.
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      One would be pretty hard-pressed to argue that women hold "minority of power. For several decades now, women have had higher college enrollment rates. And among the two youngest generations, the gender pay gap has actually reversed with women out-earning men [1]. One could very well make the argument that discrimination favoring women isn't affirmative action, but rather "punching down" so to speak. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-e...
      - howinteresting 4y ago
        Only 30%ish of US state legislators are women. Abortion rights we're just taken away in a number of states. That's a pretty naked display of power.
        Manuel_D 4y ago
        > Abortion rights we're just taken away in a number of states. That's a pretty naked display of power. A policy change that women are actually more likely to support than men. If it's a naked display of power, it's power of a group that's actually slightly overrepresented towards women. 1. https://www.vox.com/2019/5/20/18629644/abortion-gender-gap-public-opinion https://www.vox.com/2019/5/20/18629644/abortion-gender-gap-p...
bushbaba 4y ago
My Alma matter literally does everything in their power to boost female admits. It’s grown from 1:4 to roughly 1:3 after a decade of new majors, new scholarships, lower admission scores. This all comes at the cost of well qualified Asian and white males. Multiple studies found White woman are the biggest benefactors of affirmative action.

pokepim 4y ago

michaelt 4y ago

Not in STEM departments, no. Why would you run a pro-male affirmative action programme in a department where men were already over-represented? But there's affirmative action for men in nursing, teaching, social studies, and similar female-dominated departments. There are active campaigns to recruit more male nurses - and male teachers are more likely to be promoted. I also know first-hand that vocational ballet schools recruit equal numbers of boys and girls, so they can teach partnering - despite the fact they probably get 30 female applicants for every male applicant! Of course, a male might find it unfair that the pro-male affirmative action is only applied in areas like ballet and nursing which they're not interested in - but that's the whole point of affirmative action. And if you find it unfair that the pro-male affirmative action for female-dominated jobs only provides low-paid, low-status jobs - then feminists are very much in agreement with you about the unfairness of the situation :)

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> if you find it unfair that the pro-male affirmative action for female-dominated jobs only provides low-paid, low-status jobs - then feminists are very much in agreement with you about the unfairness of the situation :) This is an interesting point, how much of the salary is determined by presumably impartial market forces, and how much of it is just status and social signalling. We know status and social signalling play a significant role, otherwise behavioural economics and marketing wouldn't exist. We also know that the diffrence between salaries of rank and file staff and C-suit executives have increased 15x in the past 20 years, without any corresponding increase in productivity There is good reason to believe that if you could magically shove high-status men into nursing; nursing salaries would go up. But it's hard to see how it would happen unless we'd have equivalent of the draft for low status jobs.
- duvenaud 4y ago
  >We also know that the diffrence between salaries of rank and file staff and C-suit executives have increased 15x in the past 20 years, without any corresponding increase in productivity Seems like evidence against the claim that status plays a significant role in setting salaries, unless their status has also increased massively in that time.