4 ms·

1963? I remember burning school buses and people shot dead when they were finally forcing integration when I was a kid - mid/late 1970s https://www.nytimes.com

by louky 4y ago

1963? I remember burning school buses and people shot dead when they were finally forcing integration when I was a kid - mid/late 1970s https://www.nytimes.com/1975/09/07/archives/guard-called-out-in-louisville-riot-50-persons-are-injured-and-200.html https://www.nytimes.com/1975/09/07/archives/guard-called-out... They're still not really integrated. At all.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
Forced busing worked too. Got the money more evenly distributed and fostered healthier, more heterogeneous cultures in the schools. Parents just weren't ready for interracial marriage, and were terrified their kids would date 'other'.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  > Parents just weren't ready for interracial marriage, and were terrified their kids would date 'other'. Do you think this is why black parents were mostly against forced busing?
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    I cannot find evidence that black parents opposed the busing, much less why. Can you point me to some evidence?
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      Did you really express opinion about how forced busing worked without knowing such basic facts? Here is, for example, a NYT article from 1973, describing result of a Gallup poll: https://www.nytimes.com/1973/09/09/archives/gallup-finds-few-favor-busing-for-integration.html https://www.nytimes.com/1973/09/09/archives/gallup-finds-few... > A majority of Americans continue to favor public school integration, but few people—black or white—think that busing is the best way to achieve that goal, the Gallup Poll reported yesterday. > Five per cent of the people in a recent survey by the organization—9 per cent of the blacks and 4 per cent of the whites—chose busing children from one, district to another rather than several other alternatives. Busing was so unpopular among black Americans that it had about as many supporters among them as continuing school segregation: > The poll indicated that 18 per cent of the nation opposed public school integration. Nineteen per cent of the whites and 9 per cent of the blacks in the poll were in this category. The fact is that busing was forced on the nation by people like you, who neither had much idea what the people, who they claimed to help, actually wanted, nor cared to learn. Busing was extremely unpopular policy, and this is a well known fact to anyone who actually paid attention to the history of social reform in US. Granted, public reception to busing is not one of those facts about history of black discrimination that every American ought to know, especially if they are too young to either remember this, or learn it from their parents. However, one should not express opinions on whether it worked, or throw some extremely simplistic takes about intermarriage worries, without knowing that people hated busing, white and black.
      - paulryanrogers 4y ago
        People once wanted slavery and explicit segregation, that doesn't mean it's evil to force them to stop. Gallop polls not withstanding there is evidence busing improved the lives of minorities. I've lived in the south where busing had been forced and the north where it wasn't. It does work. https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED571629 https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED571629 > When people call busing ill conceived or the worst means of ensuring integration, they conveniently obscure that busing was almost always a tool of last resort, mandated by courts only after lengthy battles with school boards and state officials, by black parents and civil rights groups, failed to produce even modest integration for black children.[1] People may have opposed busing for a variety of reasons. Yet the results suggest it was segregation. IME even desegregationist parents flinch once an 'other' comes home for dinner with their child's family. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/opinion/sunday/it-was-never-about-busing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/opinion/sunday/it-was-nev...
        xyzzyz 4y ago
        > People once wanted slavery and explicit segregation, that doesn't mean it's evil to force them to stop. Sure, but if it was the slave themselves who preferred slavery to what your courts were forcing on them, one should really step back and ask oneself if he is doing the right thing. > Gallop polls not withstanding there is evidence busing improved the lives of minorities. And there is an ample evidence that it made their lives worse, that one could obtain by simply asking them how they feel about the policy. The fact is that you remain completely uninterested in what the people you claim to be helping actually want, and instead prefer to force your preferences on them because you believe it’s better for them and the society. You know who else claimed the same about their policy, and ignored the protests of people affected by it? The segregationists.

by louky 4y ago

paulryanrogers 4y ago

Forced busing worked too. Got the money more evenly distributed and fostered healthier, more heterogeneous cultures in the schools. Parents just weren't ready for interracial marriage, and were terrified their kids would date 'other'.

xyzzyz 4y ago
> Parents just weren't ready for interracial marriage, and were terrified their kids would date 'other'. Do you think this is why black parents were mostly against forced busing?
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  I cannot find evidence that black parents opposed the busing, much less why. Can you point me to some evidence?
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    Did you really express opinion about how forced busing worked without knowing such basic facts? Here is, for example, a NYT article from 1973, describing result of a Gallup poll: https://www.nytimes.com/1973/09/09/archives/gallup-finds-few-favor-busing-for-integration.html https://www.nytimes.com/1973/09/09/archives/gallup-finds-few... > A majority of Americans continue to favor public school integration, but few people—black or white—think that busing is the best way to achieve that goal, the Gallup Poll reported yesterday. > Five per cent of the people in a recent survey by the organization—9 per cent of the blacks and 4 per cent of the whites—chose busing children from one, district to another rather than several other alternatives. Busing was so unpopular among black Americans that it had about as many supporters among them as continuing school segregation: > The poll indicated that 18 per cent of the nation opposed public school integration. Nineteen per cent of the whites and 9 per cent of the blacks in the poll were in this category. The fact is that busing was forced on the nation by people like you, who neither had much idea what the people, who they claimed to help, actually wanted, nor cared to learn. Busing was extremely unpopular policy, and this is a well known fact to anyone who actually paid attention to the history of social reform in US. Granted, public reception to busing is not one of those facts about history of black discrimination that every American ought to know, especially if they are too young to either remember this, or learn it from their parents. However, one should not express opinions on whether it worked, or throw some extremely simplistic takes about intermarriage worries, without knowing that people hated busing, white and black.
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      People once wanted slavery and explicit segregation, that doesn't mean it's evil to force them to stop. Gallop polls not withstanding there is evidence busing improved the lives of minorities. I've lived in the south where busing had been forced and the north where it wasn't. It does work. https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED571629 https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED571629 > When people call busing ill conceived or the worst means of ensuring integration, they conveniently obscure that busing was almost always a tool of last resort, mandated by courts only after lengthy battles with school boards and state officials, by black parents and civil rights groups, failed to produce even modest integration for black children.[1] People may have opposed busing for a variety of reasons. Yet the results suggest it was segregation. IME even desegregationist parents flinch once an 'other' comes home for dinner with their child's family. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/opinion/sunday/it-was-never-about-busing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/opinion/sunday/it-was-nev...
      - xyzzyz 4y ago
        > People once wanted slavery and explicit segregation, that doesn't mean it's evil to force them to stop. Sure, but if it was the slave themselves who preferred slavery to what your courts were forcing on them, one should really step back and ask oneself if he is doing the right thing. > Gallop polls not withstanding there is evidence busing improved the lives of minorities. And there is an ample evidence that it made their lives worse, that one could obtain by simply asking them how they feel about the policy. The fact is that you remain completely uninterested in what the people you claim to be helping actually want, and instead prefer to force your preferences on them because you believe it’s better for them and the society. You know who else claimed the same about their policy, and ignored the protests of people affected by it? The segregationists.