4 ms·

> But, why do we need to use race as a proxy? Because historically race was used systemically to limit opportunities for people of color. The last school to be

by juve1996 4y ago

> But, why do we need to use race as a proxy? Because historically race was used systemically to limit opportunities for people of color. The last school to be desegregated was in 1963. Think about that.

kube-system 4y ago
I know why many minorities have (/still do) faced disadvantages. I am not questioning the problem, I am questioning the solution.
- juve1996 4y ago
  That's a pretty straightforward disadvantage. The only solution is to make public schools accept people of color. There's no other way around that. If you don't, they won't. What we're dealing with now is the legacy of those decisions. They made sense in that context but the context has changed.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    What is a disadvantage is that some people of color experience limited opportunity due to differences in generational wealth and other factors. These disadvantages can be measured directly. There's no need to erroneously presume that Sasha and Malia are more disadvantaged on their college application than a poor Appalachian white kid with the same test scores.
    - juve1996 4y ago
      My point was, that less than 60 years ago, it very clearly was a disadvantage, because of the system. > These disadvantages can be measured directly. There's no need to erroneously presume that Sasha and Malia are more disadvantaged than a poor Appalachian white kid with the same test scores. The rate of poverty of black children is much higher than that of white children, so black children will ultimately get more benefit because it's needed more. The problem is that we think this is a zero sum game when it isn't. We can help them both.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        > The rate of poverty of black children is much higher than that of white children, so black children will ultimately get more benefit because it's needed more. The problem is that we think this is a zero sum game when it isn't. We can help them both. I agree -- but a college application isn't for an average black student or an average white student. Each application is for one individual student, who had an individual life experience. If we want to help students who struggled in poverty -- let's measure their individual poverty. Then we'll help everyone at exactly the correct rate, rather than on some generalized presumption.
idontpost 4y ago
louky 4y ago
1963? I remember burning school buses and people shot dead when they were finally forcing integration when I was a kid - mid/late 1970s https://www.nytimes.com/1975/09/07/archives/guard-called-out-in-louisville-riot-50-persons-are-injured-and-200.html https://www.nytimes.com/1975/09/07/archives/guard-called-out... They're still not really integrated. At all.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  Forced busing worked too. Got the money more evenly distributed and fostered healthier, more heterogeneous cultures in the schools. Parents just weren't ready for interracial marriage, and were terrified their kids would date 'other'.
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    > Parents just weren't ready for interracial marriage, and were terrified their kids would date 'other'. Do you think this is why black parents were mostly against forced busing?
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      I cannot find evidence that black parents opposed the busing, much less why. Can you point me to some evidence?
      - xyzzyz 4y ago
        Did you really express opinion about how forced busing worked without knowing such basic facts? Here is, for example, a NYT article from 1973, describing result of a Gallup poll: https://www.nytimes.com/1973/09/09/archives/gallup-finds-few-favor-busing-for-integration.html https://www.nytimes.com/1973/09/09/archives/gallup-finds-few... > A majority of Americans continue to favor public school integration, but few people—black or white—think that busing is the best way to achieve that goal, the Gallup Poll reported yesterday. > Five per cent of the people in a recent survey by the organization—9 per cent of the blacks and 4 per cent of the whites—chose busing children from one, district to another rather than several other alternatives. Busing was so unpopular among black Americans that it had about as many supporters among them as continuing school segregation: > The poll indicated that 18 per cent of the nation opposed public school integration. Nineteen per cent of the whites and 9 per cent of the blacks in the poll were in this category. The fact is that busing was forced on the nation by people like you, who neither had much idea what the people, who they claimed to help, actually wanted, nor cared to learn. Busing was extremely unpopular policy, and this is a well known fact to anyone who actually paid attention to the history of social reform in US. Granted, public reception to busing is not one of those facts about history of black discrimination that every American ought to know, especially if they are too young to either remember this, or learn it from their parents. However, one should not express opinions on whether it worked, or throw some extremely simplistic takes about intermarriage worries, without knowing that people hated busing, white and black.
hardware2win 4y ago
How many years needs to pass that people will stop using one variable for such a complex, full of entrophy processes?

kube-system 4y ago

I know why many minorities have (/still do) faced disadvantages. I am not questioning the problem, I am questioning the solution.

juve1996 4y ago
That's a pretty straightforward disadvantage. The only solution is to make public schools accept people of color. There's no other way around that. If you don't, they won't. What we're dealing with now is the legacy of those decisions. They made sense in that context but the context has changed.
- kube-system 4y ago
  What is a disadvantage is that some people of color experience limited opportunity due to differences in generational wealth and other factors. These disadvantages can be measured directly. There's no need to erroneously presume that Sasha and Malia are more disadvantaged on their college application than a poor Appalachian white kid with the same test scores.
  - juve1996 4y ago
    My point was, that less than 60 years ago, it very clearly was a disadvantage, because of the system. > These disadvantages can be measured directly. There's no need to erroneously presume that Sasha and Malia are more disadvantaged than a poor Appalachian white kid with the same test scores. The rate of poverty of black children is much higher than that of white children, so black children will ultimately get more benefit because it's needed more. The problem is that we think this is a zero sum game when it isn't. We can help them both.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      > The rate of poverty of black children is much higher than that of white children, so black children will ultimately get more benefit because it's needed more. The problem is that we think this is a zero sum game when it isn't. We can help them both. I agree -- but a college application isn't for an average black student or an average white student. Each application is for one individual student, who had an individual life experience. If we want to help students who struggled in poverty -- let's measure their individual poverty. Then we'll help everyone at exactly the correct rate, rather than on some generalized presumption.

idontpost 4y ago

louky 4y ago

1963? I remember burning school buses and people shot dead when they were finally forcing integration when I was a kid - mid/late 1970s https://www.nytimes.com/1975/09/07/archives/guard-called-out-in-louisville-riot-50-persons-are-injured-and-200.html https://www.nytimes.com/1975/09/07/archives/guard-called-out... They're still not really integrated. At all.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
Forced busing worked too. Got the money more evenly distributed and fostered healthier, more heterogeneous cultures in the schools. Parents just weren't ready for interracial marriage, and were terrified their kids would date 'other'.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  > Parents just weren't ready for interracial marriage, and were terrified their kids would date 'other'. Do you think this is why black parents were mostly against forced busing?
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    I cannot find evidence that black parents opposed the busing, much less why. Can you point me to some evidence?
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      Did you really express opinion about how forced busing worked without knowing such basic facts? Here is, for example, a NYT article from 1973, describing result of a Gallup poll: https://www.nytimes.com/1973/09/09/archives/gallup-finds-few-favor-busing-for-integration.html https://www.nytimes.com/1973/09/09/archives/gallup-finds-few... > A majority of Americans continue to favor public school integration, but few people—black or white—think that busing is the best way to achieve that goal, the Gallup Poll reported yesterday. > Five per cent of the people in a recent survey by the organization—9 per cent of the blacks and 4 per cent of the whites—chose busing children from one, district to another rather than several other alternatives. Busing was so unpopular among black Americans that it had about as many supporters among them as continuing school segregation: > The poll indicated that 18 per cent of the nation opposed public school integration. Nineteen per cent of the whites and 9 per cent of the blacks in the poll were in this category. The fact is that busing was forced on the nation by people like you, who neither had much idea what the people, who they claimed to help, actually wanted, nor cared to learn. Busing was extremely unpopular policy, and this is a well known fact to anyone who actually paid attention to the history of social reform in US. Granted, public reception to busing is not one of those facts about history of black discrimination that every American ought to know, especially if they are too young to either remember this, or learn it from their parents. However, one should not express opinions on whether it worked, or throw some extremely simplistic takes about intermarriage worries, without knowing that people hated busing, white and black.

hardware2win 4y ago

How many years needs to pass that people will stop using one variable for such a complex, full of entrophy processes?