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>And this is why the term "white privilege" sells so poorly to whites. It's because the privilege is being more wealthy, not being white. If the privilege only

>And this is why the term "white privilege" sells so poorly to whites. It's because the privilege is being more wealthy, not being white. If the privilege only applies to rich whites and also applies to rich Asians and blacks then it's not white privilege but simply privilege. >And why CRT is attacked so vigorously. Have you read any CRT "scholars?" I have, and they are sickening.

daxelrod 4y ago
Why can't whiteness and wealthiness both be types of privilege?
- Test0129 4y ago
  Because one does not imply the other. A minority of whites are disproportionately wealthy. Associating the trait of a minority of a group with the majority is racism. It's really that simple.
  - daxelrod 4y ago
    I'm not suggesting one implies the other. Are you saying the only advantage one could possibly have is economic? Or maybe that you'd expect all advantages and disadvantages to be reflected in wealth or lack thereof?
ameister14 4y ago
I didn't think that Derrick Bell's writing was 'sickening.' Not sure who you're talking about - Crenshaw? Collins?
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  Sue for one, and really the whole of "whiteness studies." I don't know if that's CRT proper, but that's what I was refering to. I read some of "the future of whiteness" and some shorter articles posted in various "communications" journals. From Sue: >Whiteness is an invisible veil that cloaks its racist deleterious effects through individuals, organizations, and society. The result is that White people are allowed to enjoy the benefits that accrue to them by virtue of their skin color. Thus, Whiteness, White supremacy, and White privilege are three interlocking forces that disguise racism so it may allow White people to oppress and harm persons of color while maintaining their individual and collective advantage and innocence. Or from another "scholar" >How can we account for the ways in which white people refuse to acknowledge their possessive investment in whiteness even as they work to increase its value everyday? We can't blame the color of our skin. It must be the content of our character. I can't find it now, but I once read a passage from one of these CRT nutjobs' work that really shed light on their insanity. It went something like >whiteness and white supremacy is not seen directly but rather is society itself. It is the tapestry we are woven of, and we are therefore blind to it. It exists even where it cannot be seen as it is the source of rather than a detail within society. They are all somewhat careful with what they say. But their effect is real. They are turning being white into an evil, one that cannot be rectified but is an irremovable stain on one's being. Of course there is this classic response: "I don't think white people are evil, just whiteness, which you are by necessity a part of because you directly contribute to it."
mcguire 4y ago
So you're saying that a poor white family has the same disadvantages as an equally poor black family?
tzs 4y ago
> It's because the privilege is being more wealthy, not being white. If the privilege only applies to rich whites and also applies to rich Asians and blacks then it's not white privilege but simply privilege. Whites get advantages that have nothing to do with being more wealthy. For example, once in the '80s I was driving around the Los Angeles area around 3 AM (I had insomnia and decide to just drive around randomly, and maybe pick up a snack at a 7-11) when I got pulled over for having one of my tail lights out. I was driving a cheap car, had a full unkempt beard and long hair, was wearing a tie-dyed shirt, and was in my early 20s. Anyone who saw me would probably think druggie. I gave him my license and told him the registration was in the glove compartment. He shone his light on the glove compartment while I opened it and dug the registration out from under the $1000 in $20 bills that it was under. He asked me why I had so much cash. I told him that I'd responded to a classified ad from someone selling a modem for $1000. I was meeting them later that day and that was the money to pay for it. He gave my license and registration back, told me to get the tail light fixed, and let me go. I have no confidence that if I had been a young black man driving a cheap car looking like a druggie at 3 AM with $1000 in small bills in the glove compartment that things would have been so hassle free.
seadan83 4y ago
This would imply that "driving while black" is not a thing if you have an expensive car. Counter-example: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/black-woman-pulled-over-video-police-state-attorney-aramis-ayala-wants-to-talk-florida-a7841516.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/black-woma... <edit> Another example indicating the dependent variable is not always wealth:</edit> https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/michael-bennett-las-vegas-police-brutality-accusations-threat-to-kill-african-american-football-a7933536.html https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/michael-bennett-las-vega... While that is anecdotal, the overall statistics of police stops based on race are damning. This is just in the realm of policing, let alone workplace social dynamics, education, and the list goes on. So while class and white privilege are a venn diagram, their overlap is not at all total.
- crhulls 4y ago
  I don’t necessarily think the research agrees the stats are damning. For example, here is Roland Fryer’s study which concluded blacks are more likely to be pulled over than whites but are actually less likely to be shot. https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_analysis_tables_figures.pdf https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_anal... Roland is a black economist from Harvard. It seems many people from both sides just decide the data that refutes their opinion is misinformation. The topic of police discrimination is far more nuanced than either the left or right makes it appear. And it is easy to find anecdotes that support any narrative you want so your links do little to sway me in the same way if I were to share a link of a white person being harassed it would likely do little to sway you.
  - seadan83 4y ago
    An empirical survey showing use of lethal force is similar but use of any force is 50% more likely based on race seems to support my point. Agree about anecdotes. Disagree my opinion cannot be swayed (this is not twitter and I certainly don't fully agree with "the left"). If the assertion is that all rich people are treated the same, regardless of race, then only examples are needed to refute it. But, beyond anecdotes, the national statistics indicate there are disparities in policing based on race ((1) your citation strongly supports this assertion (2) as an aside and without reference, there are similar damning statistics for incarceration rates and jail sentences, and this is still just in the realm of criminal justice): https://abcnews.go.com/US/abc-news-analysis-police-arrests-nationwide-reveals-stark/story?id=71188546 https://abcnews.go.com/US/abc-news-analysis-police-arrests-n... "ABC News analysis of police arrests nationwide reveals stark racial disparity Black people were arrested at a rate five times more than white people in 2018." "In 250 jurisdictions, black people were 10 times more likely to be arrested than their white counterparts" This one is more anecdotal since it is localized to just one (large) town, but is quite clear and damning: https://www.yahoo.com/now/beverly-hills-police-sued-racist-145824049.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9zZWFyY2guYnJhdmUuY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAGdXRkHf5w5cgzDlXjDYL5MEZUud6VFMCkWGJlT7HApMgt3pbIuCqZR-houowv5jY-UfDG8fSVAvl-ceWa60QOwpNUveJ1xF8JPbp6Lr0WtRBWKWHNtwj1-4nDv68EZuAK35ca2jqclrvGPCLsV8K4lMcAazMZJGO https://www.yahoo.com/now/beverly-hills-police-sued-racist-1...
ChainOfFools 4y ago
ironically CRT was popularized (I want to say developed, but cant check refs right now) by two guys, one white and the other Japanese.

daxelrod 4y ago

Why can't whiteness and wealthiness both be types of privilege?

Test0129 4y ago
Because one does not imply the other. A minority of whites are disproportionately wealthy. Associating the trait of a minority of a group with the majority is racism. It's really that simple.
- daxelrod 4y ago
  I'm not suggesting one implies the other. Are you saying the only advantage one could possibly have is economic? Or maybe that you'd expect all advantages and disadvantages to be reflected in wealth or lack thereof?

ameister14 4y ago

I didn't think that Derrick Bell's writing was 'sickening.' Not sure who you're talking about - Crenshaw? Collins?

Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
Sue for one, and really the whole of "whiteness studies." I don't know if that's CRT proper, but that's what I was refering to. I read some of "the future of whiteness" and some shorter articles posted in various "communications" journals. From Sue: >Whiteness is an invisible veil that cloaks its racist deleterious effects through individuals, organizations, and society. The result is that White people are allowed to enjoy the benefits that accrue to them by virtue of their skin color. Thus, Whiteness, White supremacy, and White privilege are three interlocking forces that disguise racism so it may allow White people to oppress and harm persons of color while maintaining their individual and collective advantage and innocence. Or from another "scholar" >How can we account for the ways in which white people refuse to acknowledge their possessive investment in whiteness even as they work to increase its value everyday? We can't blame the color of our skin. It must be the content of our character. I can't find it now, but I once read a passage from one of these CRT nutjobs' work that really shed light on their insanity. It went something like >whiteness and white supremacy is not seen directly but rather is society itself. It is the tapestry we are woven of, and we are therefore blind to it. It exists even where it cannot be seen as it is the source of rather than a detail within society. They are all somewhat careful with what they say. But their effect is real. They are turning being white into an evil, one that cannot be rectified but is an irremovable stain on one's being. Of course there is this classic response: "I don't think white people are evil, just whiteness, which you are by necessity a part of because you directly contribute to it."

mcguire 4y ago

So you're saying that a poor white family has the same disadvantages as an equally poor black family?

tzs 4y ago

> It's because the privilege is being more wealthy, not being white. If the privilege only applies to rich whites and also applies to rich Asians and blacks then it's not white privilege but simply privilege. Whites get advantages that have nothing to do with being more wealthy. For example, once in the '80s I was driving around the Los Angeles area around 3 AM (I had insomnia and decide to just drive around randomly, and maybe pick up a snack at a 7-11) when I got pulled over for having one of my tail lights out. I was driving a cheap car, had a full unkempt beard and long hair, was wearing a tie-dyed shirt, and was in my early 20s. Anyone who saw me would probably think druggie. I gave him my license and told him the registration was in the glove compartment. He shone his light on the glove compartment while I opened it and dug the registration out from under the $1000 in $20 bills that it was under. He asked me why I had so much cash. I told him that I'd responded to a classified ad from someone selling a modem for $1000. I was meeting them later that day and that was the money to pay for it. He gave my license and registration back, told me to get the tail light fixed, and let me go. I have no confidence that if I had been a young black man driving a cheap car looking like a druggie at 3 AM with $1000 in small bills in the glove compartment that things would have been so hassle free.

seadan83 4y ago

This would imply that "driving while black" is not a thing if you have an expensive car. Counter-example: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/black-woman-pulled-over-video-police-state-attorney-aramis-ayala-wants-to-talk-florida-a7841516.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/black-woma... <edit> Another example indicating the dependent variable is not always wealth:</edit> https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/michael-bennett-las-vegas-police-brutality-accusations-threat-to-kill-african-american-football-a7933536.html https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/michael-bennett-las-vega... While that is anecdotal, the overall statistics of police stops based on race are damning. This is just in the realm of policing, let alone workplace social dynamics, education, and the list goes on. So while class and white privilege are a venn diagram, their overlap is not at all total.

crhulls 4y ago
I don’t necessarily think the research agrees the stats are damning. For example, here is Roland Fryer’s study which concluded blacks are more likely to be pulled over than whites but are actually less likely to be shot. https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_analysis_tables_figures.pdf https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_anal... Roland is a black economist from Harvard. It seems many people from both sides just decide the data that refutes their opinion is misinformation. The topic of police discrimination is far more nuanced than either the left or right makes it appear. And it is easy to find anecdotes that support any narrative you want so your links do little to sway me in the same way if I were to share a link of a white person being harassed it would likely do little to sway you.
- seadan83 4y ago
  An empirical survey showing use of lethal force is similar but use of any force is 50% more likely based on race seems to support my point. Agree about anecdotes. Disagree my opinion cannot be swayed (this is not twitter and I certainly don't fully agree with "the left"). If the assertion is that all rich people are treated the same, regardless of race, then only examples are needed to refute it. But, beyond anecdotes, the national statistics indicate there are disparities in policing based on race ((1) your citation strongly supports this assertion (2) as an aside and without reference, there are similar damning statistics for incarceration rates and jail sentences, and this is still just in the realm of criminal justice): https://abcnews.go.com/US/abc-news-analysis-police-arrests-nationwide-reveals-stark/story?id=71188546 https://abcnews.go.com/US/abc-news-analysis-police-arrests-n... "ABC News analysis of police arrests nationwide reveals stark racial disparity Black people were arrested at a rate five times more than white people in 2018." "In 250 jurisdictions, black people were 10 times more likely to be arrested than their white counterparts" This one is more anecdotal since it is localized to just one (large) town, but is quite clear and damning: https://www.yahoo.com/now/beverly-hills-police-sued-racist-145824049.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9zZWFyY2guYnJhdmUuY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAGdXRkHf5w5cgzDlXjDYL5MEZUud6VFMCkWGJlT7HApMgt3pbIuCqZR-houowv5jY-UfDG8fSVAvl-ceWa60QOwpNUveJ1xF8JPbp6Lr0WtRBWKWHNtwj1-4nDv68EZuAK35ca2jqclrvGPCLsV8K4lMcAazMZJGO https://www.yahoo.com/now/beverly-hills-police-sued-racist-1...

ChainOfFools 4y ago

ironically CRT was popularized (I want to say developed, but cant check refs right now) by two guys, one white and the other Japanese.