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Yeah, it's kind of apples to apples. Talk to an actual industrial engineer and they can tell you how laughably bad some of Tesla's manufacturing practices. You

Yeah, it's kind of apples to apples. Talk to an actual industrial engineer and they can tell you how laughably bad some of Tesla's manufacturing practices. You're never going to catch up to Toyota or Honda in pure speed or quality. But Tesla has figured out a ton of clever ways to cut corners (mostly by having a customer base that accepts a very tiny static lineup of car models) and have gone all out on economies of scale.

signatoremo 4y ago
Not sure which engineers you spoke with but Toyota recently decided to reboot their EV strategies to respond to progress made by Tesla - [0] > "What's driving Mr Terashi's effort is the EV's faster-than-anticipated takeoff and rapid-fire adoptions of cutting-edge innovations by Tesla and others," one of the people said. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/exclusive-toyota-scrambles-ev-reboot-with-eye-tesla-2022-10-24/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/exclus...
- legitster 4y ago
  Sure, Toyota is lightyears behind on battery tech. But it sounds like this is more about Toyota misestimating the market than actual differences in manufacturing technology.
panick21_ 4y ago
Sorry this is actually nonsense. Seriously, just nonsense. Go and actually watch the disassembly and analysis done by Munro engineers. They do detailed analysis and costing. And Tesla is routinely doing things nobody else is doing that is highly effective. Their use of aluminum casting is industry leading. Their electronics are industry leading by a wide margin. They are great at working with large glass panels. Their battery packs are industry leading. Their heating-cooling loop is fantastic. I could go on. Just go and look a Tesla looks under the frunk and then look at how a VW ID.4 looks. That doesn't mean they are the best at everything. Their suspensions are not as good. Their fit and finish is not as good. Again, there is more one could mention. To just flat say that Tesla it worse at manufacturing the their competition is simply not true. If it were true they could never achieve anywhere close the margin they got. And this margin is achieved with pure EV, something most companies barley make profit on. Tesla is also amazing at iteration. They are iterating faster then Toyota. In 2017 Model 3 had a lot of issues, if you look at Model 3 in 2021 the internals are very different. > But Tesla has figured out a ton of clever ways to cut corners (mostly by having a customer base that accepts a very tiny static lineup of car models) A the old 'all their costumers are idiots' defense that can't be backed up by anything substantial. > and have gone all out on economies of scale. They are pretty small car company still in terms of volume. And centralizing and vertically integrating production is a valid and effective industrial practice. They had better margin then the competition while having 1/2 or less production on a architecture so just saying 'economics of scale' is just nonsense.
- legitster 4y ago
  I think you misread my tone. I'm commending Tesla for being smart about their manufacturing strategy. > They are iterating faster then Toyota. In 2017 Model 3 had a lot of issues, if you look at Model 3 in 2021 the internals are very different. To put it in perspective in these 4 years, Toyota iterated for every single model year across 14 different model. And on top of that released all new platforms for the Yaris, the Camry, the Rav4, the Corolla, the Land Cruiser, the Tundra, and the Avalon.
- bumby 4y ago
  >Tesla is also amazing at iteration. They are iterating faster then Toyota. In 2017 Model 3 had a lot of issues, if you look at Model 3 in 2021 the internals are very different. This actually undermines your point to a certain extent. Tesla is great at iterating but that often comes at a cost to quality. It is very hard to manage reliability when parts and suppliers are constantly churning. "Older models typically fare better in reliability, as companies tend to make tweaks and redesigns to solve known problems, while sticking with the same parts and suppliers. But Tesla deviates from this approach, Fisher explained. “At almost random times during the year Tesla will switch major components, suppliers or sensors and other units. The more you change, the greater the chances you’re going to have some problems.” [1] [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/18/consumer-reports-2021-auto-reliability-survey-how-tesla-evs-fared.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/18/consumer-reports-2021-auto-r...
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    The method of consistently updating was actually advocated by manufacturing guru who saved the US car industry, Edwards Deming. He advocated for this to improve quality. The engineer who pointed out how good Tesla is doing with this iteration worked with Deming at Ford. "5. Improve constantly and forever the system of production and service, to improve quality and productivity, and thus constantly decrease costs." - Edwards Deming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming This does make version and revision management and service harder, but that you can manage with software and its worth the cost. However, what you say is partially true, its not all positive. If you endlessly make the same car with very little change you can also hit very high quality and reliability. That is why sometimes cars like Jeep look good in quality rankings. Overall however, I think there is good reason for iteratively interdicting changes.

signatoremo 4y ago

Not sure which engineers you spoke with but Toyota recently decided to reboot their EV strategies to respond to progress made by Tesla - [0] > "What's driving Mr Terashi's effort is the EV's faster-than-anticipated takeoff and rapid-fire adoptions of cutting-edge innovations by Tesla and others," one of the people said. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/exclusive-toyota-scrambles-ev-reboot-with-eye-tesla-2022-10-24/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/exclus...

legitster 4y ago
Sure, Toyota is lightyears behind on battery tech. But it sounds like this is more about Toyota misestimating the market than actual differences in manufacturing technology.

panick21_ 4y ago

Sorry this is actually nonsense. Seriously, just nonsense. Go and actually watch the disassembly and analysis done by Munro engineers. They do detailed analysis and costing. And Tesla is routinely doing things nobody else is doing that is highly effective. Their use of aluminum casting is industry leading. Their electronics are industry leading by a wide margin. They are great at working with large glass panels. Their battery packs are industry leading. Their heating-cooling loop is fantastic. I could go on. Just go and look a Tesla looks under the frunk and then look at how a VW ID.4 looks. That doesn't mean they are the best at everything. Their suspensions are not as good. Their fit and finish is not as good. Again, there is more one could mention. To just flat say that Tesla it worse at manufacturing the their competition is simply not true. If it were true they could never achieve anywhere close the margin they got. And this margin is achieved with pure EV, something most companies barley make profit on. Tesla is also amazing at iteration. They are iterating faster then Toyota. In 2017 Model 3 had a lot of issues, if you look at Model 3 in 2021 the internals are very different. > But Tesla has figured out a ton of clever ways to cut corners (mostly by having a customer base that accepts a very tiny static lineup of car models) A the old 'all their costumers are idiots' defense that can't be backed up by anything substantial. > and have gone all out on economies of scale. They are pretty small car company still in terms of volume. And centralizing and vertically integrating production is a valid and effective industrial practice. They had better margin then the competition while having 1/2 or less production on a architecture so just saying 'economics of scale' is just nonsense.

legitster 4y ago
I think you misread my tone. I'm commending Tesla for being smart about their manufacturing strategy. > They are iterating faster then Toyota. In 2017 Model 3 had a lot of issues, if you look at Model 3 in 2021 the internals are very different. To put it in perspective in these 4 years, Toyota iterated for every single model year across 14 different model. And on top of that released all new platforms for the Yaris, the Camry, the Rav4, the Corolla, the Land Cruiser, the Tundra, and the Avalon.
bumby 4y ago
>Tesla is also amazing at iteration. They are iterating faster then Toyota. In 2017 Model 3 had a lot of issues, if you look at Model 3 in 2021 the internals are very different. This actually undermines your point to a certain extent. Tesla is great at iterating but that often comes at a cost to quality. It is very hard to manage reliability when parts and suppliers are constantly churning. "Older models typically fare better in reliability, as companies tend to make tweaks and redesigns to solve known problems, while sticking with the same parts and suppliers. But Tesla deviates from this approach, Fisher explained. “At almost random times during the year Tesla will switch major components, suppliers or sensors and other units. The more you change, the greater the chances you’re going to have some problems.” [1] [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/18/consumer-reports-2021-auto-reliability-survey-how-tesla-evs-fared.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/18/consumer-reports-2021-auto-r...
- panick21_ 4y ago
  The method of consistently updating was actually advocated by manufacturing guru who saved the US car industry, Edwards Deming. He advocated for this to improve quality. The engineer who pointed out how good Tesla is doing with this iteration worked with Deming at Ford. "5. Improve constantly and forever the system of production and service, to improve quality and productivity, and thus constantly decrease costs." - Edwards Deming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming This does make version and revision management and service harder, but that you can manage with software and its worth the cost. However, what you say is partially true, its not all positive. If you endlessly make the same car with very little change you can also hit very high quality and reliability. That is why sometimes cars like Jeep look good in quality rankings. Overall however, I think there is good reason for iteratively interdicting changes.