5 ms·

EE won’t go higher, SWE will go lower

Retric 4y ago
Alternatively, web is generally more valuable. You don’t buy a new washing machine because the current firmware sucks, but you will shop somewhere else if Newegg’s website is terrible. That relationship is generally true where people rarely test embedded software until after a purchase, but people tend to jump ship more frequently online. Net result a lot of critical infrastructure and devices suck as much as possible while still getting the job done.
- Negitivefrags 4y ago
  I’m building a house at the moment and I have been insisting that I am able to actually test all the built in appliances with power to see if the software is garbage. I have found that most of the high end brands have a completely horrible user experience. Miele is the worst I’ve tried, and I found that as you go up the price range even inside that brand the experience gets worse. The top end Miele induction cooktop takes over 5 seconds to boot up before you can even turn a hob on. The interface has a second of latency on presses. It took me probably 20 seconds to work out how to turn a hob on. I happened to be with my mother at the time and I asked her to try to work out how to turn a hob on and she had failed after 1 minute of trying and gave up and asked me. It looks nice though. The thing I find the most infuriating about it is that my attitude towards this stuff is just not understood by designers at all. They complain at my choices because the Miele appliances which they specified are “better quality”. And yet I feel like they can’t have actually tried to use them because as far as I can tell the quality is total garbage.
  - VBprogrammer 4y ago
    Slightly off topic but imagine an induction cooker with the original iPod control wheel as it's power control. We opted for a gas hob when we installed our kitchen. Mostly because I like the controllability when cooking. Obviously it's a nightmare for health and the environment but man it makes cooking easier.
    - dudeofea 4y ago
      how is it a nightmare? if you aren't getting that energy from natural gas, you'd mostly get it from a CO2 producing power plant, with efficiency losses going from heat (steam) -> electric -> heat (cooktop)
      - cameronh90 4y ago
        Because about 45% of our (UK) electricity doesn't emit carbon. Gas is also really terrible for indoor air quality.
      - Retric 4y ago
        Even Gas cooktops without a pilot light are surprisingly inefficient with under 40% of the energy ending up in your pan. (Which is why the air several feet above the pan is so hot.) On top of this you end up venting air your HVAC system just used a lot of energy to make pleasant outside and/or breathing noxious fumes from incomplete combustion so Carbon Monoxide, NOx, formaldehyde etc Induction stoves powered by natural gas power plants are more efficient than directly cooking with natural gas plus you can use clean solar/wind/nuclear/hydropower or oddballs like geothermal.
        sgerenser 4y ago
        It’s even worse if you don’t size the burner to the pan. My wife always uses the largest burner with an 8 inch pan, probably 70% of the heat goes around and over it. Really made me want to switch to induction but I noticed the same thing that most induction cooktops have stupid, unreliable touch controls.
        VBprogrammer 4y ago
        I think efficiency of a hob is pretty low on the priority list right? Certainly when framed in cost terms (gas being cheaper than electric). The total amounts are too small relative to hot water / home heating to make much difference. Especially if you go out of your way to find an induction cooker with a decent interface (there is at least one out there with knobs). For most things which would need cooked on a hob for a long time we use an Instapot electric pressure cooker anyway (out of preference rather than efficiency concern).
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    The mere idea of waiting for a kitchen appliance to "boot up" makes me angry. How did we normalize this madness? Telephones, TVs, car engine instruments, HVAC thermostats, why can't any of these be instant-on like in the 80s? Apply power and it starts working is a basic design principle.
    - riskable 4y ago
      Meh. Bootup time is irrelevant if the thing is always on. Many "dumb" microwaves won't let you use them until you set the clock after a power loss which creates an artificial "boot up time" of 5-120 seconds (depending on how complicated the procedure is; I remember microwaves that had absolutely obtuse clock-setting procedures).
      - Negitivefrags 4y ago
        In the case of this cooktop, it was not always on. You have to boot it up every time you go to use it.
  - WanderPanda 4y ago
    Same goes for car MMIs. Tesla is almost fine when it comes to the latency (still far behind an iPad e.g.) but other manufacturers are just atrocious in this respect
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    Good to know about Miele ranges -- this would certainly infuriate me. I wonder if their higher end dishwashers have the same usability problems.
    - pencilguin 4y ago
      Most dishwashers stay on all the time, drawing watts 24/7. That could be microwatts, but that might cost an extra dollar. Probably the cooktop boots up anew each time because otherwise you would have to be able to reset it when it crashes.

Alternatively, web is generally more valuable. You don’t buy a new washing machine because the current firmware sucks, but you will shop somewhere else if Newegg’s website is terrible. That relationship is generally true where people rarely test embedded software until after a purchase, but people tend to jump ship more frequently online. Net result a lot of critical infrastructure and devices suck as much as possible while still getting the job done.

Negitivefrags 4y ago
I’m building a house at the moment and I have been insisting that I am able to actually test all the built in appliances with power to see if the software is garbage. I have found that most of the high end brands have a completely horrible user experience. Miele is the worst I’ve tried, and I found that as you go up the price range even inside that brand the experience gets worse. The top end Miele induction cooktop takes over 5 seconds to boot up before you can even turn a hob on. The interface has a second of latency on presses. It took me probably 20 seconds to work out how to turn a hob on. I happened to be with my mother at the time and I asked her to try to work out how to turn a hob on and she had failed after 1 minute of trying and gave up and asked me. It looks nice though. The thing I find the most infuriating about it is that my attitude towards this stuff is just not understood by designers at all. They complain at my choices because the Miele appliances which they specified are “better quality”. And yet I feel like they can’t have actually tried to use them because as far as I can tell the quality is total garbage.
- VBprogrammer 4y ago
  Slightly off topic but imagine an induction cooker with the original iPod control wheel as it's power control. We opted for a gas hob when we installed our kitchen. Mostly because I like the controllability when cooking. Obviously it's a nightmare for health and the environment but man it makes cooking easier.
  - dudeofea 4y ago
    how is it a nightmare? if you aren't getting that energy from natural gas, you'd mostly get it from a CO2 producing power plant, with efficiency losses going from heat (steam) -> electric -> heat (cooktop)
    - cameronh90 4y ago
      Because about 45% of our (UK) electricity doesn't emit carbon. Gas is also really terrible for indoor air quality.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Even Gas cooktops without a pilot light are surprisingly inefficient with under 40% of the energy ending up in your pan. (Which is why the air several feet above the pan is so hot.) On top of this you end up venting air your HVAC system just used a lot of energy to make pleasant outside and/or breathing noxious fumes from incomplete combustion so Carbon Monoxide, NOx, formaldehyde etc Induction stoves powered by natural gas power plants are more efficient than directly cooking with natural gas plus you can use clean solar/wind/nuclear/hydropower or oddballs like geothermal.
      - sgerenser 4y ago
        It’s even worse if you don’t size the burner to the pan. My wife always uses the largest burner with an 8 inch pan, probably 70% of the heat goes around and over it. Really made me want to switch to induction but I noticed the same thing that most induction cooktops have stupid, unreliable touch controls.
        VBprogrammer 4y ago
        I think efficiency of a hob is pretty low on the priority list right? Certainly when framed in cost terms (gas being cheaper than electric). The total amounts are too small relative to hot water / home heating to make much difference. Especially if you go out of your way to find an induction cooker with a decent interface (there is at least one out there with knobs). For most things which would need cooked on a hob for a long time we use an Instapot electric pressure cooker anyway (out of preference rather than efficiency concern).
- ryandrake 4y ago
  The mere idea of waiting for a kitchen appliance to "boot up" makes me angry. How did we normalize this madness? Telephones, TVs, car engine instruments, HVAC thermostats, why can't any of these be instant-on like in the 80s? Apply power and it starts working is a basic design principle.
  - riskable 4y ago
    Meh. Bootup time is irrelevant if the thing is always on. Many "dumb" microwaves won't let you use them until you set the clock after a power loss which creates an artificial "boot up time" of 5-120 seconds (depending on how complicated the procedure is; I remember microwaves that had absolutely obtuse clock-setting procedures).
    - Negitivefrags 4y ago
      In the case of this cooktop, it was not always on. You have to boot it up every time you go to use it.
- WanderPanda 4y ago
  Same goes for car MMIs. Tesla is almost fine when it comes to the latency (still far behind an iPad e.g.) but other manufacturers are just atrocious in this respect
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  Good to know about Miele ranges -- this would certainly infuriate me. I wonder if their higher end dishwashers have the same usability problems.
  - pencilguin 4y ago
    Most dishwashers stay on all the time, drawing watts 24/7. That could be microwatts, but that might cost an extra dollar. Probably the cooktop boots up anew each time because otherwise you would have to be able to reset it when it crashes.