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I'm pretty glad that it's forbidden to deny the holocaust.

by h4kor 4y ago

the_third_wave 4y ago
Some people deny the holocaust. some deny the Armenian genocide, some deny the death toll of the Chinese cultural revolution, some - many - deny or have not heard of the holodomor (Firefox spelling checker for one, it recognises holocaust but puts a red squiggle under holodomor...), some deny the decades of terror under the Bolsheviks in Russia and the Soviet Union. Denying clearly documented historical episodes speaks clearly of the intention of the agenda of the speaker. It is up to the listener to decide where to place that speaker. Of course this assumes the listener has a reasonably broad education giving him the needed information to evaluate such historically incorrect statements. This is unfortunate given that several of the mentioned episodes - the holodomor, the Chinese cultural revolution, the Armenian genocide, the exploits of the Bolsheviks - receive far less attention than the holocaust. This in turn makes it possible for people to walk around in T-shirts with hammers and sickles or the likeness of Lenin, Stalin and Che Guevara without any repercussions while those who would try to do the same with anything related to Nazism are quickly dealt with. It is also why Communism is allowed within the Overton window - or at least allowed to sit on the window sill - where Nazism is the prime example of something which should never be allowed in. While I'm fine with the latter the former is a disgrace given the fact that Communism has far surpassed Nazism in its death toll. So, either allow holocaust denial or forbid all the others - there are many more examples - as well. I vote for allowing denial but then I do have enough background information to be able to place these deniers. So, improve education, get the subject of history out of the hands of the ideologues and into those of historians worth this title. Make sure that the coming generations know where it is at when they read or meet any of these historically inaccurate narratives.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- tejohnso 4y ago
  Great comment. I learned something about a topic I'm not very familiar with. I think it's possible that less attention is not the only reason Communism is tolerated more than Nazism. Nazism is much more inherently genocidal than Communism is. While the death toll for Communism is higher, it can be argued (and frequently is according to Wikipedia) that those deaths occurred under Communist regimes, but not because of Communism. So while some may wear a t-shirt with Che on it, they could be attempting to signal a Communist ideal that has never been implemented. While a t-shirt with a swastika on it, or worse, Hitler himself, doesn't leave much room to interpret anything other than racism, fascism, and ultimately genocide. I also support improved education. Particularly body counts of states and their leaders, past and present. Especially for those that receive perhaps the least attention of all, Western democracies.
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    The reasoning behind "allowing" Communism while "shunning" Nazism is a product of the way these subjects are treated in schools, media, politics and entertainment. It is not difficult - nay, very easy - to see the parallels between the ideologies but they are presented in a different light: Communism is "basically good but difficult to get right", Nazism is "pure evil and can only lead to death and destruction". It is just as easy to turn these narratives around since national socialism is but a variation on international socialism which - according to doctrine - is the precursor to Communism. The dictatorship of the proletariat needs a class enemy just as much as the "volk" - German for 'people' - needs an enemy to blame for all its misfortunes. It can easily be said that Hitler just did not do national socialism right just like Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot and the Kim dynasty and Castro and all the others did not do international socialism right. There is just as much room for a budding national socialist wearing a T-shirt with "Blood and Soil" on it to claim that he only means the best for his folk, that the Third Reich went wrong when they saw the Jews and Gypsies and homosexuals and handicapped and Slavs and Negroes and unemployed as the enemies of the "volk" who needed to be eradicated - this time things would be done right. He would be just as wrong as the budding international socialist/Communist who makes that claim in defence of his shirt bearing a "Communist and proud of it" [1] banner. These ideologies belong in the same dust bin of history, "tried & failed disastrously - avoid" but somehow they are not. This needs to change and it needs to change sooner rather than later given the resurgence of Communism as somehow being a viable ideology. [1] https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Communist-and-Proud-of-It-by-Buddhuu/14795933.IJ6L0.XYZ https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Communist-and-Proud-of-I...
- benwad 4y ago
  If the holodomor, the great leap forward, and all the other horrible things that happened under communist regimes are part of the 'death toll of communism', I'd be interested in what you think the death toll of capitalism is. I'd argue the Atlantic slave trade, the Bengal famine, the Irish famine and the genocide of native Americans would count for a start.
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    The death toll of Capitalism is a negative number. Poverty worldwide included 94 percent of the world’s population in 1820. This number was reduced to 17 percent in 2011. The largest part of the fall of poverty took place between 1981 when 53 percent of the world lived in poverty and 2011 when the aforementioned 17 percent did so. This rapid fall is largely due to the onset of industrialisation which in turn was made possible by the availability of the capita needed to build the mines and factories. While it may have been a rough ride to start with - working conditions in early capitalism were atrocious - this was eventually solved in western countries due to regulation and enlightened self-interest. The same cycle has taken place in non-western countries where working conditions sometimes more resemble those in the early industrialised west. Capitalism with regulations is still capitalism, no matter whether that be European- and North American-style big-state capitalism or Deng Xiaoping's Chinese state-regulated capitalism. Now about those examples you gave: On the death toll of the Atlantic slave trade here's some numbers courtesy of Statista [1]. From 1501 until 1866, it is estimated that the transatlantic slave trade saw more than 12.5 million African people forcefully put on slave ships and transported to the Americas. Of these 12.5 million, only 10.7 million disembarked on the other side of the Atlantic, meaning that approximately 1.8 million (14.5 percent) did not survive the journey, known as the Middle Passage. The principal cause of the Bengal famine - with a death toll of around 3 million people - was the epidemic of Helminthosporium oryzae (a plant disease affecting rice crops), an epidemic only matched by the Irish potato famine of 1845. This was exacerbated by poor regional administration and the war with Japan [2]. The potato famine was caused by an infestation of Phytophtora infestans (potato blight, a crop fungus) which was exacerbated by the fact that only a single variety of potato was grown in all Ireland in combination with inadequate (the repeal of tariffs on grain products, import of corn from the USA) and counterproductive (continued and sometimes even increased export of food products from Ireland to Great Britain) government responses. The death toll of the Great Famine is estimated to be up to 1 million people. The death toll of the colonisation of the Americas (north and south) was largely due to diseases like Smallpox which had been chronic in Eurasian populations for hundreds of years but to which native Americans did not have any acquired immunity. It is important to realise that the Spanish and Portuguese and French and British and Dutch (etc.) did not know about the dangers of these diseases to the native population when they landed on the shores of the Americas, this was not some plot to eradicate the native population. It was also not related to Capitalism which only became a thing some 400 years later. As to the numbers involved this seems to be disputed but they are indisputably large, probably in the tens of millions. The number of native Americans killed in combat by westerners in the 'Indian wars' in the United States is far lower, around 30.000. Most importantly, none of this has anything to do with Capitalism unless you want to equate all types and wars of conquest with Capitalism in which case Genghis Khan was the greatest capitalist of all. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1143458/annual-share-slaves-deaths-during-middle-passage/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1143458/annual-share-sla... [2] https://historyreclaimed.co.uk/the-bengal-famine-what-the-experts-say/ https://historyreclaimed.co.uk/the-bengal-famine-what-the-ex...
gadders 4y ago
Let them. The clowns. People think the earth is flat as well.

I'm pretty glad that it's forbidden to deny the holocaust.

by h4kor 4y ago

I'm pretty glad that it's forbidden to deny the holocaust.

Some people deny the holocaust. some deny the Armenian genocide, some deny the death toll of the Chinese cultural revolution, some - many - deny or have not heard of the holodomor (Firefox spelling checker for one, it recognises holocaust but puts a red squiggle under holodomor...), some deny the decades of terror under the Bolsheviks in Russia and the Soviet Union. Denying clearly documented historical episodes speaks clearly of the intention of the agenda of the speaker. It is up to the listener to decide where to place that speaker. Of course this assumes the listener has a reasonably broad education giving him the needed information to evaluate such historically incorrect statements. This is unfortunate given that several of the mentioned episodes - the holodomor, the Chinese cultural revolution, the Armenian genocide, the exploits of the Bolsheviks - receive far less attention than the holocaust. This in turn makes it possible for people to walk around in T-shirts with hammers and sickles or the likeness of Lenin, Stalin and Che Guevara without any repercussions while those who would try to do the same with anything related to Nazism are quickly dealt with. It is also why Communism is allowed within the Overton window - or at least allowed to sit on the window sill - where Nazism is the prime example of something which should never be allowed in. While I'm fine with the latter the former is a disgrace given the fact that Communism has far surpassed Nazism in its death toll. So, either allow holocaust denial or forbid all the others - there are many more examples - as well. I vote for allowing denial but then I do have enough background information to be able to place these deniers. So, improve education, get the subject of history out of the hands of the ideologues and into those of historians worth this title. Make sure that the coming generations know where it is at when they read or meet any of these historically inaccurate narratives.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tejohnso 4y ago
Great comment. I learned something about a topic I'm not very familiar with. I think it's possible that less attention is not the only reason Communism is tolerated more than Nazism. Nazism is much more inherently genocidal than Communism is. While the death toll for Communism is higher, it can be argued (and frequently is according to Wikipedia) that those deaths occurred under Communist regimes, but not because of Communism. So while some may wear a t-shirt with Che on it, they could be attempting to signal a Communist ideal that has never been implemented. While a t-shirt with a swastika on it, or worse, Hitler himself, doesn't leave much room to interpret anything other than racism, fascism, and ultimately genocide. I also support improved education. Particularly body counts of states and their leaders, past and present. Especially for those that receive perhaps the least attention of all, Western democracies.
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  The reasoning behind "allowing" Communism while "shunning" Nazism is a product of the way these subjects are treated in schools, media, politics and entertainment. It is not difficult - nay, very easy - to see the parallels between the ideologies but they are presented in a different light: Communism is "basically good but difficult to get right", Nazism is "pure evil and can only lead to death and destruction". It is just as easy to turn these narratives around since national socialism is but a variation on international socialism which - according to doctrine - is the precursor to Communism. The dictatorship of the proletariat needs a class enemy just as much as the "volk" - German for 'people' - needs an enemy to blame for all its misfortunes. It can easily be said that Hitler just did not do national socialism right just like Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot and the Kim dynasty and Castro and all the others did not do international socialism right. There is just as much room for a budding national socialist wearing a T-shirt with "Blood and Soil" on it to claim that he only means the best for his folk, that the Third Reich went wrong when they saw the Jews and Gypsies and homosexuals and handicapped and Slavs and Negroes and unemployed as the enemies of the "volk" who needed to be eradicated - this time things would be done right. He would be just as wrong as the budding international socialist/Communist who makes that claim in defence of his shirt bearing a "Communist and proud of it" [1] banner. These ideologies belong in the same dust bin of history, "tried & failed disastrously - avoid" but somehow they are not. This needs to change and it needs to change sooner rather than later given the resurgence of Communism as somehow being a viable ideology. [1] https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Communist-and-Proud-of-It-by-Buddhuu/14795933.IJ6L0.XYZ https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Communist-and-Proud-of-I...
benwad 4y ago
If the holodomor, the great leap forward, and all the other horrible things that happened under communist regimes are part of the 'death toll of communism', I'd be interested in what you think the death toll of capitalism is. I'd argue the Atlantic slave trade, the Bengal famine, the Irish famine and the genocide of native Americans would count for a start.
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  The death toll of Capitalism is a negative number. Poverty worldwide included 94 percent of the world’s population in 1820. This number was reduced to 17 percent in 2011. The largest part of the fall of poverty took place between 1981 when 53 percent of the world lived in poverty and 2011 when the aforementioned 17 percent did so. This rapid fall is largely due to the onset of industrialisation which in turn was made possible by the availability of the capita needed to build the mines and factories. While it may have been a rough ride to start with - working conditions in early capitalism were atrocious - this was eventually solved in western countries due to regulation and enlightened self-interest. The same cycle has taken place in non-western countries where working conditions sometimes more resemble those in the early industrialised west. Capitalism with regulations is still capitalism, no matter whether that be European- and North American-style big-state capitalism or Deng Xiaoping's Chinese state-regulated capitalism. Now about those examples you gave: On the death toll of the Atlantic slave trade here's some numbers courtesy of Statista [1]. From 1501 until 1866, it is estimated that the transatlantic slave trade saw more than 12.5 million African people forcefully put on slave ships and transported to the Americas. Of these 12.5 million, only 10.7 million disembarked on the other side of the Atlantic, meaning that approximately 1.8 million (14.5 percent) did not survive the journey, known as the Middle Passage. The principal cause of the Bengal famine - with a death toll of around 3 million people - was the epidemic of Helminthosporium oryzae (a plant disease affecting rice crops), an epidemic only matched by the Irish potato famine of 1845. This was exacerbated by poor regional administration and the war with Japan [2]. The potato famine was caused by an infestation of Phytophtora infestans (potato blight, a crop fungus) which was exacerbated by the fact that only a single variety of potato was grown in all Ireland in combination with inadequate (the repeal of tariffs on grain products, import of corn from the USA) and counterproductive (continued and sometimes even increased export of food products from Ireland to Great Britain) government responses. The death toll of the Great Famine is estimated to be up to 1 million people. The death toll of the colonisation of the Americas (north and south) was largely due to diseases like Smallpox which had been chronic in Eurasian populations for hundreds of years but to which native Americans did not have any acquired immunity. It is important to realise that the Spanish and Portuguese and French and British and Dutch (etc.) did not know about the dangers of these diseases to the native population when they landed on the shores of the Americas, this was not some plot to eradicate the native population. It was also not related to Capitalism which only became a thing some 400 years later. As to the numbers involved this seems to be disputed but they are indisputably large, probably in the tens of millions. The number of native Americans killed in combat by westerners in the 'Indian wars' in the United States is far lower, around 30.000. Most importantly, none of this has anything to do with Capitalism unless you want to equate all types and wars of conquest with Capitalism in which case Genghis Khan was the greatest capitalist of all. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1143458/annual-share-slaves-deaths-during-middle-passage/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1143458/annual-share-sla... [2] https://historyreclaimed.co.uk/the-bengal-famine-what-the-experts-say/ https://historyreclaimed.co.uk/the-bengal-famine-what-the-ex...

gadders 4y ago

Let them. The clowns. People think the earth is flat as well.