6 ms·

> Hickling pointed to Java, which has long “seemed to be replacing C++ itself,” but hasn't. This is inaccurate. Java completely ate C++'s lunch in the enterpri

by kibwen 4y ago

> Hickling pointed to Java, which has long “seemed to be replacing C++ itself,” but hasn't. This is inaccurate. Java completely ate C++'s lunch in the enterprise space back around the turn of the millennium. Java doesn't need to continue to eat into C++'s marketshare in other domains, because it has more than enough mindshare to sustain itself (there are more Java programmers than C++ programmers), and its very existence keeps C++ from reasserting itself in the enterprise space.

YetAnotherNick 4y ago
> Java completely ate C++'s lunch in the enterprise space back around the turn of the millennium When was that C++'s lunch? I might be wrong, but for backend dev(majority of enterprise work?) C++ was never a big thing.
- trashface 4y ago
  Late 90s. It was before Java got hotspot. Java prior to that was incredibly slow. Microsoft's J++ was a more performant runtime than Sun/Oracle java for several years. That ultimately became C#/.Net. C++ had the benefit of running fast but it had all the problems you can still run into today. I'll never forget that app I worked on where function deep in the stack was returning a reference to a local string variable containing html...
- anthonybsd 4y ago
  Late 90s to early 2000s for sure. Tons and tons of backends of various kinds were written in it. If it was Windows it was typically running on COM/DCOM, and in UNIX it was usually CORBA. Sure, the UI was typically written in something else. Dawn of the Web with CGI, and if we are talking desktop people would use something like Visual Basic, Power Builder, or Delphi. But C++ pretty much dominated that space until Java got decent enough and fast enough.
- wvenable 4y ago
  Before Java, C++ was basically the only game in town for frontend and backend. There was always Visual Basic on Windows, and C, and a smattering of various pascal flavors.
zozbot234 4y ago
This, pretty much. Long before there was anything like Rust, Java was the memory-safe alernative to C++ for larger projects. And yes it was slow and clunky, but devs still put up with it because the benefits were so compelling.
63 4y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but now that everything is run in a docker container anyway, doesn't most of Java's appeal of "write once, run anywhere" from the turn of the millennium go away? At this point all it has is garbage collection and a network effect.
- munificent 4y ago
  > At this point all it has is garbage collection You say that like it's a minor thing, but GC is probably the largest language-related productivity improvement I've ever experienced as a developer, second maybe only to static types.
- fsloth 4y ago
  Unless you need bare metal speed, or use some specific piece of code, never use C++. It is horrible, convoluted mess that will consume developer hours into pointless trivia that are not issues in anu other languages. So C++ has that as point against unless you want to waste developer hours on purpose. I’m saying this while writing C++ daily because in our domain (cad, geometric computing) for our use case it’s the best option only because mostly it’s the only option.
- mk89 4y ago
  Yes and the best part is that companies instead of migrating from Java to something lighter are simply trying new things like GraalVM which makes native executables. So your developers can keep on writing crappy and heavy spring boot applications (which need 10-15 seconds in best case scenarios to to start) and eventually be "graalvm-ed" to produce a native executable that starts in < 1 sec. I mean, that's a brilliant evolution (no jokes). This is how you keep in the game without getting devoured by Go and similar.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > all it has is garbage collection and a network effect. It didn't have much of an advantage at the time either. It's advantage was that Sun was willing to shower SPARC boxes on your university for almost nothing if you were willing to move your core curriculum to Java.
- 4y ago

by kibwen 4y ago

YetAnotherNick 4y ago

> Java completely ate C++'s lunch in the enterprise space back around the turn of the millennium When was that C++'s lunch? I might be wrong, but for backend dev(majority of enterprise work?) C++ was never a big thing.

trashface 4y ago
Late 90s. It was before Java got hotspot. Java prior to that was incredibly slow. Microsoft's J++ was a more performant runtime than Sun/Oracle java for several years. That ultimately became C#/.Net. C++ had the benefit of running fast but it had all the problems you can still run into today. I'll never forget that app I worked on where function deep in the stack was returning a reference to a local string variable containing html...
anthonybsd 4y ago
Late 90s to early 2000s for sure. Tons and tons of backends of various kinds were written in it. If it was Windows it was typically running on COM/DCOM, and in UNIX it was usually CORBA. Sure, the UI was typically written in something else. Dawn of the Web with CGI, and if we are talking desktop people would use something like Visual Basic, Power Builder, or Delphi. But C++ pretty much dominated that space until Java got decent enough and fast enough.
wvenable 4y ago
Before Java, C++ was basically the only game in town for frontend and backend. There was always Visual Basic on Windows, and C, and a smattering of various pascal flavors.

zozbot234 4y ago

This, pretty much. Long before there was anything like Rust, Java was the memory-safe alernative to C++ for larger projects. And yes it was slow and clunky, but devs still put up with it because the benefits were so compelling.

63 4y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but now that everything is run in a docker container anyway, doesn't most of Java's appeal of "write once, run anywhere" from the turn of the millennium go away? At this point all it has is garbage collection and a network effect.

munificent 4y ago
> At this point all it has is garbage collection You say that like it's a minor thing, but GC is probably the largest language-related productivity improvement I've ever experienced as a developer, second maybe only to static types.
fsloth 4y ago
Unless you need bare metal speed, or use some specific piece of code, never use C++. It is horrible, convoluted mess that will consume developer hours into pointless trivia that are not issues in anu other languages. So C++ has that as point against unless you want to waste developer hours on purpose. I’m saying this while writing C++ daily because in our domain (cad, geometric computing) for our use case it’s the best option only because mostly it’s the only option.
mk89 4y ago
Yes and the best part is that companies instead of migrating from Java to something lighter are simply trying new things like GraalVM which makes native executables. So your developers can keep on writing crappy and heavy spring boot applications (which need 10-15 seconds in best case scenarios to to start) and eventually be "graalvm-ed" to produce a native executable that starts in < 1 sec. I mean, that's a brilliant evolution (no jokes). This is how you keep in the game without getting devoured by Go and similar.
pessimizer 4y ago
> all it has is garbage collection and a network effect. It didn't have much of an advantage at the time either. It's advantage was that Sun was willing to shower SPARC boxes on your university for almost nothing if you were willing to move your core curriculum to Java.
4y ago